Help needed.

I have a Road Racing Civic Si with an 98 ITR Engine

Engine has:

Mugen Header 4-1 Race
ITR CAMS, AEM Timming Adjusters
Cold Air Intake
CTR Pistons
Mugen Valve Springs
Mugen Thermostat
Mugen Head Gasket
Aftermaket Engine Management System Fully Programmable. WOLF 3D EMS
Runs on 110 Octane Fuel.
450CC Injectors

Compression is good for 255 psi on al four cylinders.

Now the situation,

Engine pulls good at 1 and second gear. Third is not impresive and fourth gear sucks.....

Dyno runs only yielded 170hp max horsepower. I was expecting at least 190.

Ignition MAP for the engine is in http://netdial.caribe.net/~racer/WOLF/Ign.jpg
Fuel MAP is in http://netdial.caribe.net/~racer/WOLF/fuel.jpg

My conclusion is that I need igger CAMS in order to let the engine breathe to it's
real potential. The car ran better WITHOUT the CTR pistons.

Does anyone like to make a recommendation or share similar experiences

Looking forward for a productive discussion.

Thanks

Orlando
racer@caribe.net

 

Well...you dont really have that many "go fast" parts on the engine.
Basically all I see is the Mugen header and the CTR pistons (slightly high compression)...Id say you at least need some aggressive cams to reach 190 WHP.

As for the gas..why run 110 octane? Your compression cant be that high..also the ignition timing doesnt really seem that high.


BTW: Can you explain to me how you real the ignition/fuel maps..Ive seen smilar ones like taht before and have no clue how to read them.

 

The graph is 3 dimensional because it has 3 variables: rpm, injector duty/timing, and load (throttle %??). It sucks cause the z axis (vertical, injector/timing) is not scaled.

Basically at 8000 rpms and no throttle (~12%) you want a different duty cycle than 8000rpms and WOT (100%) That is what the graph represents.

At 8000 rpms and no throttle (~12%) you want different ignition timing than 8000rpms at WOT. Once again the z axis isn't scaled on this graph.



[Modified by sackdz, 12:52 PM 10/31/2001]

 

inj duty cycle is too high for 450cc (what fuel pressure ?) ... it is runnign too too rich ... try doing 3rd/4th gear pulls then shut it down soon the car hits redline in 4th, pull plugs and check. BTW, which plugs you running ?

Greg

 

Ah alright...makes sense and seems pretty "simple"

How much does the Wolf 3D EMS cost? Is it around the same as the Hondata? (does the Hondata work the same way?)

 

All ECU's use this of mapping. The nicer systems let you actually "see" the maps. You can get Hondata with capability to change it yourself, from a laptop in the car if you want. Hondata sells this package mostly to shops it appears on their website, and probably a few race teams. But if I had that kind of money, I'd get it for myself. I just wonder if Hondata has any database of maps. It would take awhile on the dyno for a shop to tune a car from scratch.

 

Ok,

Let me add some numbers here.

The LOAD Percentage in this case is the representation of the MAP Sensor reading.
The Throttle sensor is used only to enrich while opening.

12% meaning full vaccum , 100% meaning WOT (1 athmosphere)

For ignition I have tried several setups whit this one being a test of lower values.
Maximum value at WOT at 8000 was 36, in the graph shown is only 28. At less load values the timming is advanced. In this graph @8000 and 100%load the timming is 35.5 degrees. Idle floats around the 12 and 25% values at 1000 RPMs.
Timming is slightly more advanced at 500RPM than at 1000 to keep it alive should revs drop that low.

I run 45 psi fuel. I am using the 110 VP Racing fuel because I wanted to advance the timming to the max possible. I am running NKG Gold Range-7 spark plugs. Will get the model number later.

for those interested, check for all data values corresponding to the 3D MAPs
http://netdial.caribe.net/~racer/WOLF/Igntext.jpg http://netdial.caribe.net/~racer/WOLF/fueltext.jpg


Don't you guys think 255 compression is high?.. Maybe too high for ITR cams?

I am thinking to add TODA C's to the equation......

 

didnt notice you were from bayamon .. I just got back from PR this past sunday ... wanted to go see races in carolina but had to settle for test runs in salinas instead since thats where my family is.

as for the problem, you timing curve is not too bad, your fuel curve most certainly is, I've run cars as high as 320psi static pressure and still never fully utilized 370cc injectors @48psi... and I'm talking about using a very large header and the endyn rollerwave pistons.

Greg

 

You could have gone to the Road racing series at Salinas over this last weekend. We had a great time. Several B18 engines in the 220 WHP arena and here I am struggling with the detailed tuning of my engine. Never had such a problem with the D-Series engines.

Well, one important thing is that this is a BATCH type fuel injection, meaning that
the duty cycles are calculated different. I'm running at ~45-~48 psi of fuel. I am not discarding the rich situation but definitely bigger injectors are needed for
batch injection setups where saturation occurs at 6.xx milliseconds opening at 9000 RPM. With sequential (Factory and very expensive computers) you could go smaller injectors and more time before saturating the duty cycle. In batch mode the injectors (all 4) open at every revolution.

The spark plugs are definitely darker than ideal but I did make some adjustments in that area without any good results. I will go to the Dyno here soon but need to have something done to make sure I will be have a "tunable" setup to get close to at least 200 WHP. I am thinking cams and valvetrain (springs/retainers) will have to go in there. It would be ideal to be able to tune this setup to at least the factory levels. When I went initially to the dyno I had 135 WHP and go it to 170. But this is
a 2000 pounds car with full Ground control race suspension, soft compound tires and a new ITR Tranny and I know that ANY factory ITR would blow my doors. There is something missing here. I'm also talking to the WOLF supplier to discard any computer signal triggering problems.

Orlando

 

170 with those mods? Hmmm. Does sound low. I know dyno comparisons are not the best from one dyno to the next, but I ran low 180s on stock compression, stock cams, cam gears, full exhaust and V-AFC.
Maybe Greg is right, too rich. I run less fuel on my 12.%;1 setup with Spec Cs.
With the dyno run, did you get any A/F readings plotted out with the RPMs?

Jason

 

even with the batch firing setup, 450cc @ 45psi is a lot, you also need to use the wideband on the dyno to clean it properly. if you have 250ish pressure on all 4 cylinder, and you have a enough overlap you should be good enough for the 200-210 range. Too bad you didnt know me when I was there I could have helped.


Greg

 

Well, I need to prepare for a race on December 1 and 2. A one hour race.
We have a brand new car (have only ggone to three races ) BY FAR the best handling/Braking car and by FAR the slowest one (due to this situation). But I know we can surprise these other guys with the proper tuning. I will make sure
the Injection/Timming computer is OK and then order a set of CAMS.

Are we all in agreement TODA C's are the best fit??????

We know some of our competitors are using custom grinds with a little more lift. But I don't think will work with the CTRs..

After that I will get the Dyno for a day if needed. Brand new dyno facilities with
all working sensors.

And if things start looking in the right direction I may even be inclined to send a nice round trip ticket to anyone interested to help win this race.

See the car at http://netdial.caribe.net/~racer/civic02
and

http://netdial.caribe.net/~racer/civic

Orlando

 

And yes, for those who looked at the pictures, even with the problem we qualify
in the first row alongside a 230WHP CRX. Our Chassis is that good compared to anyone else's..... A little power and put our names in the chequered flag..


Orlando