OT, Customer Service and a pending car swap
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From: RIP Craig Jones
OT, Customer Service and a pending car swap
Gang,
This topic has to do with Saturn and their complete lack of competence in customer service.......... if you're interested read further, it is however long winded.
The story starts about 6 years ago. I bought a used 92 Saturn SC2, kept the car for over 5 years and put many thousands of dollars into modifications and maintenance. http://saturn.pair.com/ryanj.htm - About 3 or 4 years ago, i got involved with and helped start Saturn Performance Owners Club, http://spoc.roadrunn.com/, got involved with the Saturn Performance Club http://www.saturnperformanceclub.com, autocrossed the car for 2 or 3 years, preached saturn "performance" when presented with the question of "you race a what?.......... helped get http://www.saturnperformance.com up and running, provide tech articles and event coverage, organized a few local events with saturn owners in the DC area, buy all my parts from the parts counter at the dealer, preach plastic panels and the LLO (Saturn DOHC) engines sell other friends on the cars, etc.....
Fast forward to May '01. I sell the 92SC with 130K on it, and buy a 95SC2 with a freshly turned rotors and a fresh engine from Saturn of Sterling Va, car had 68K on it - leather, sunroof, power options, a new motor all for $7050. I sweet deal, so i thought. After i got it, i discovered a few problems. All the ignition components were shot (plugs/wires/coils) and the car never had a 60K service. Not warranty items so says the dealer, so i take care of it. Go to install some high-po brake pads and find the brake pads were installed backwards at the dealer (inboard/outboard pads swapped - not safe). Dealer absolves itself of any responsibility, says no way they could've done anything wrong.
After putting about 10K of EASY highway miles on the car (i dont even speed) and about 200 city miles (and a few autocrosses), and some mods into the car (here), on Oct 14th after an autocross i notice some strange noises from underhood. Turns out one of the studs securing the motor mount to the timing cover had sheared, and another had cracked the timing cover, leaving a large gaping hole, and the mount had shifted and cracked the valve cover, which now was leaking. You can see a good pic of how it goes together here:
The only way the bolts would have become loose (which they were) and sheared off and caused other havoc would have been an improper installation, or some serious abuse on my part (which was not the case). Plan and simple, the studs backed out of the timing cover and then the **** hit the fan with mass carnage. Remember, these parts come out during an engine rebuild, and most of the time when you pull the nuts off, the stud comes right out with it.
I nursed the car to Saturn of Winchester, Va on Oct 16th, who then relays all the information to Saturn of Sterling, Va (since this is where the car was originally sold/serviced) and they offered no help on the matter. They wouldnt agree to even splitting the labor costs i wanted them to do the work. Their stand stood at "we dont think that we have done anything wrong with the repair, so we arent going to fix it for you, and that if this problem would have happened because of something we did, those studs would have backed out and sheared long before 11K miles ago." He also flat out lied ot me and said the studs were never taken out of the timing cover - which is next to impossible to do, and absolutely impossible to prove. The service manager then made no consolation as to how the car is used affects its wear - he said it doesnt matter that it was 11K easy highway miles, 11K miles is 11K miles regardless of whether its city or highway - which we all know is total BS. The could not Prove that the technician in this case didnt do anything wrong or different, leaving the burden of proof on the consumer, not the retailer for the warranty claim. I stated my facts and opinions, and came to a standstill, so i decided to get the Saturn Corporate office on the phone.
The first rep i spoke with wouldnt return phone calls (i had to call her) and was rude, dissrespectful, and failed to make any investigation into the claim - she called the svc. manager and then re-stated (like a Parrot) verbatim what the svc manger said to me originally, and when i tried to present a logical argument, she kept repeating (like a Parrot) what the svc. manager had said, never deviating and then got frustrated (i kept my cool the whole time) and hung up the phone on me after re-stating that "Saturn is not prepared to offer any assitance at this time" for about the 40th time in 10 minutes. I had stated my previous enthusiasm with the brand and my involvement with the company (i am/was a poster child for Saturn) and she refused that saturn offers any goodwill (ever) towards good customers. Then the abrubt "click".
Move to last week, October 22nd, where i place another phone call in disgust out of their customer service. I was promised a return call by tuesday, COB. No phone call by Wed, Oct 24th, i call back... and the 25th... and the 26th. Finally a voice-mail on the 26th AFTER i had fixed my car so that i could go out of town last weekend. I left a message and recieved a phone call today with the original customer service rep's supervisor. While she was nice all she would say was that she apologized for the way i was disrespected but she "reviewed" the claim and said they would not be offering any help. I re-stated my prevous, logical, arguments, that in no way shape or form the dealer could prove that there was NO defect in workmanship with the engine tear down and subsequent removal of components (such as engine mounts). Yet she says she reviewed the claim and said that she stands behind the service manager. I re-state the logical arguments again, and also tell the story of how i've been involved with, and backed the car and the company for so long, and that i was severely dissapointed that the company offers no assistance in a "grey area" warranty to someone who has been so supportive of the company for so many years. All she said was "well we appreciate your loyalty to our company and we hope that you continue to do so.... but we cannot offer you any assitance with the current repair." So basically, i'm told "well we think thats great, but we really dont care." I stated the question "if this is how you treat your supportive, long standing customers, how do you intend to keep people around? Sales are slipping for one, and if you dont 'take care' of the customers you do have, then Saturn, as a company, has really dropped the ball". This left her utterly dumbfounded with nothing to say, and she re-iterated again "I'm sorry but... blah blah blah... no assitance.. blah blah."
I have already started test driving new cars, and i mentioned this to the rep that based on the recent events with the company that they have lost me as a long-standing customer, and that if i had been treated like a good customer, i would probably still be a happy (and probably life long) customer. However, as stated to Saturn corp rep, that they've lost me as a saturn customer and i plan on find myself in a different make of car by the time winter is over. Maybe i'm over-reacting, however 2 different mechanics had looked at the car and came to the same conclusion i did, and they would have absolutely, without question, authorized a warranty claim on this repair.
If you've read this far................. anyone got a miata for sale?
-Ryan 95SC2 #88ES (hey if i get a miata, i can keep my "ES" letters in 2002!!)
[Modified by Type-RJ, 2:17 PM 10/30/2001]
[Modified by Type-RJ, 3:42 PM 10/30/2001]
This topic has to do with Saturn and their complete lack of competence in customer service.......... if you're interested read further, it is however long winded.
The story starts about 6 years ago. I bought a used 92 Saturn SC2, kept the car for over 5 years and put many thousands of dollars into modifications and maintenance. http://saturn.pair.com/ryanj.htm - About 3 or 4 years ago, i got involved with and helped start Saturn Performance Owners Club, http://spoc.roadrunn.com/, got involved with the Saturn Performance Club http://www.saturnperformanceclub.com, autocrossed the car for 2 or 3 years, preached saturn "performance" when presented with the question of "you race a what?.......... helped get http://www.saturnperformance.com up and running, provide tech articles and event coverage, organized a few local events with saturn owners in the DC area, buy all my parts from the parts counter at the dealer, preach plastic panels and the LLO (Saturn DOHC) engines sell other friends on the cars, etc.....
Fast forward to May '01. I sell the 92SC with 130K on it, and buy a 95SC2 with a freshly turned rotors and a fresh engine from Saturn of Sterling Va, car had 68K on it - leather, sunroof, power options, a new motor all for $7050. I sweet deal, so i thought. After i got it, i discovered a few problems. All the ignition components were shot (plugs/wires/coils) and the car never had a 60K service. Not warranty items so says the dealer, so i take care of it. Go to install some high-po brake pads and find the brake pads were installed backwards at the dealer (inboard/outboard pads swapped - not safe). Dealer absolves itself of any responsibility, says no way they could've done anything wrong.
After putting about 10K of EASY highway miles on the car (i dont even speed) and about 200 city miles (and a few autocrosses), and some mods into the car (here), on Oct 14th after an autocross i notice some strange noises from underhood. Turns out one of the studs securing the motor mount to the timing cover had sheared, and another had cracked the timing cover, leaving a large gaping hole, and the mount had shifted and cracked the valve cover, which now was leaking. You can see a good pic of how it goes together here:
The only way the bolts would have become loose (which they were) and sheared off and caused other havoc would have been an improper installation, or some serious abuse on my part (which was not the case). Plan and simple, the studs backed out of the timing cover and then the **** hit the fan with mass carnage. Remember, these parts come out during an engine rebuild, and most of the time when you pull the nuts off, the stud comes right out with it.
I nursed the car to Saturn of Winchester, Va on Oct 16th, who then relays all the information to Saturn of Sterling, Va (since this is where the car was originally sold/serviced) and they offered no help on the matter. They wouldnt agree to even splitting the labor costs i wanted them to do the work. Their stand stood at "we dont think that we have done anything wrong with the repair, so we arent going to fix it for you, and that if this problem would have happened because of something we did, those studs would have backed out and sheared long before 11K miles ago." He also flat out lied ot me and said the studs were never taken out of the timing cover - which is next to impossible to do, and absolutely impossible to prove. The service manager then made no consolation as to how the car is used affects its wear - he said it doesnt matter that it was 11K easy highway miles, 11K miles is 11K miles regardless of whether its city or highway - which we all know is total BS. The could not Prove that the technician in this case didnt do anything wrong or different, leaving the burden of proof on the consumer, not the retailer for the warranty claim. I stated my facts and opinions, and came to a standstill, so i decided to get the Saturn Corporate office on the phone.
The first rep i spoke with wouldnt return phone calls (i had to call her) and was rude, dissrespectful, and failed to make any investigation into the claim - she called the svc. manager and then re-stated (like a Parrot) verbatim what the svc manger said to me originally, and when i tried to present a logical argument, she kept repeating (like a Parrot) what the svc. manager had said, never deviating and then got frustrated (i kept my cool the whole time) and hung up the phone on me after re-stating that "Saturn is not prepared to offer any assitance at this time" for about the 40th time in 10 minutes. I had stated my previous enthusiasm with the brand and my involvement with the company (i am/was a poster child for Saturn) and she refused that saturn offers any goodwill (ever) towards good customers. Then the abrubt "click".
Move to last week, October 22nd, where i place another phone call in disgust out of their customer service. I was promised a return call by tuesday, COB. No phone call by Wed, Oct 24th, i call back... and the 25th... and the 26th. Finally a voice-mail on the 26th AFTER i had fixed my car so that i could go out of town last weekend. I left a message and recieved a phone call today with the original customer service rep's supervisor. While she was nice all she would say was that she apologized for the way i was disrespected but she "reviewed" the claim and said they would not be offering any help. I re-stated my prevous, logical, arguments, that in no way shape or form the dealer could prove that there was NO defect in workmanship with the engine tear down and subsequent removal of components (such as engine mounts). Yet she says she reviewed the claim and said that she stands behind the service manager. I re-state the logical arguments again, and also tell the story of how i've been involved with, and backed the car and the company for so long, and that i was severely dissapointed that the company offers no assistance in a "grey area" warranty to someone who has been so supportive of the company for so many years. All she said was "well we appreciate your loyalty to our company and we hope that you continue to do so.... but we cannot offer you any assitance with the current repair." So basically, i'm told "well we think thats great, but we really dont care." I stated the question "if this is how you treat your supportive, long standing customers, how do you intend to keep people around? Sales are slipping for one, and if you dont 'take care' of the customers you do have, then Saturn, as a company, has really dropped the ball". This left her utterly dumbfounded with nothing to say, and she re-iterated again "I'm sorry but... blah blah blah... no assitance.. blah blah."
I have already started test driving new cars, and i mentioned this to the rep that based on the recent events with the company that they have lost me as a long-standing customer, and that if i had been treated like a good customer, i would probably still be a happy (and probably life long) customer. However, as stated to Saturn corp rep, that they've lost me as a saturn customer and i plan on find myself in a different make of car by the time winter is over. Maybe i'm over-reacting, however 2 different mechanics had looked at the car and came to the same conclusion i did, and they would have absolutely, without question, authorized a warranty claim on this repair.
If you've read this far................. anyone got a miata for sale?
-Ryan 95SC2 #88ES (hey if i get a miata, i can keep my "ES" letters in 2002!!)
[Modified by Type-RJ, 2:17 PM 10/30/2001]
[Modified by Type-RJ, 3:42 PM 10/30/2001]
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,361
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From: Maryland
Re: OT, Customer Service and a pending car swap (Type-RJ)
Some people just don't understand what customer service means, and admitting fault when it's clearly their fault. I am currently dealing with a similar lack-of-customer-service situation with Cellular One right now. They don't realize that when they mess around like that, word gets spread just as fast -- if not faster -- than if they do something great.
Both my parents own Saturns, and thankfully haven't had the issues you've had to deal with (my dad's came from S of Gaitherburg and my mom's from S of Frederick), but it's something that will definitely weigh on my mind if they say they are looking for another one.
Karen
Both my parents own Saturns, and thankfully haven't had the issues you've had to deal with (my dad's came from S of Gaitherburg and my mom's from S of Frederick), but it's something that will definitely weigh on my mind if they say they are looking for another one.
Karen
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: OT, Customer Service and a pending car swap (CamaroFS34)
Further news on the issue.... one of my friends and fellow SPOC members sent them off an email, expressing his disgust on the matter, as i've been <soapbox> very supportive of the brand (saturn) and my clubs, and have always set aside time for the club and to help other people </soapbox>, and this was the reply that was received:
Benjamin,
Thank you for taking the time to bring this web site and situation with Ryan to our attention. I
realize he has already spoken with a supervisor, and I can understand his disappointment as well as
yours. While we are not technically trained in the Saturn Customer Assistance Center, we do have
resources we can use to verify technical information provided to customer and to us. I did check
with a Saturn engineer regarding Ryan's case after reading Ryan's article and the case
documentation. I cannot share with you the details of either due to confidentiality agreements, but
I can tell you that the engineer informed me that if a part is not replaced, it is not covered under
a parts warranty for a part in the vicinity. If Ryan would like to discuss this with me further and
in greater detail, please have him e-mail me directly.
We really do our best to be fair in all cases. We don't always make everyone happy, but I would be
willing to give it another shot. Just have Ryan get in touch with me if he wants. If you need any
additional information or assistance, please do not hesitate to e-mail us again or call us at
1-800-553-6000, option 3, and the consultant who answers the phone would be happy to assist you.
Teresa Darden
Saturn Customer Assistance Center
f713864/qdup
Now, my question is..... So, if a part is not replaced then its not under warranty. Fair enough - UNLESS the part was removed, and then reinstalled improperly. Now, under the work order for the engine rebuild, the crankshaft was NOT replaced - and say, the crank snapped due to improper installation, or, a wrist pin failed due to improper installation - would that not be covered under their warranty?
As it was stated... then no, since those parts were not replaced, so therefore they are no longer covered - i suppose they just fix whatever they feel like. In addition, saturn corporate said that any saturn dealer can perform the warranty work independently, however i was told by the dealerships that the repair had to be paid for by the dealer that originally serviced the vehicle. A saturn warranty is a saturn warranty, no? Someone's not standing behind their cars here. Guess not, in this case. If i wanted poor service i would have bought some other make of car and a crappy dealership. Rosenthal Mazda in Tysons corner comes to mind....
-Ryan 95SC2 #88ES
[Modified by Type-RJ, 8:46 PM 10/31/2001]
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Re: OT, Customer Service and a pending car swap (Type-RJ)
Sorry to hear about your luck, but it's not always a bad thing that situations like this occur. I was a long time VW owner with 3 GTI's, 1 Scirocco, and 1 Rabbit in my possession over a 10 year period. The same lack of warranty support happened to me on my 97 GTI VR6 and it soured my forever on the VW brand.
I looked to the "dark side" and ended up buying an ITR (every VW owner's arch enemy). At the time it was a difficult decision as I really liked the GTI, but hated the company. But after 2.5 years with my TypeR, I'm delighted that I made the change and truly enjoy this car more than any of the VW's I owned, sans my 83 GTI.
So, while I feel your pain, it might not be such a bad time to start looking at something else.
Also, sounds like you might have a decent case to take to small claims court. If you can get the mechanics you spoke with to testify on your behalf or to at least submit notarized affadavits of their "expert" opinion on the matter, it's reasonable to expect you could get reimbursed for the money you shelled out for the repairs. Just a thought....
I looked to the "dark side" and ended up buying an ITR (every VW owner's arch enemy). At the time it was a difficult decision as I really liked the GTI, but hated the company. But after 2.5 years with my TypeR, I'm delighted that I made the change and truly enjoy this car more than any of the VW's I owned, sans my 83 GTI.
So, while I feel your pain, it might not be such a bad time to start looking at something else.
Also, sounds like you might have a decent case to take to small claims court. If you can get the mechanics you spoke with to testify on your behalf or to at least submit notarized affadavits of their "expert" opinion on the matter, it's reasonable to expect you could get reimbursed for the money you shelled out for the repairs. Just a thought....
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