GT-5 is usually fought over at the Runoffs at Mid-Ohio and here on the Pacific Coast by Joe Huffaker in his RWD Huffaker Mini, and Doug Peterson in the FWD Fortech Mini.

Short story: Joe usually beats Doug.

Longer story:

Both of these Mini's represent very good design, execution, and preparation. They are about as closely matched as competitors can be, and they are mature efforts.

Both drivers are Very Good....VERY GOOD.

I had the opportunity to watch them again just a few weeks ago at Thunderhill. I watched very closely at where Joe pulled out his gaps. Unfortunately I missed Doug's spectacular pass in traffic on the hill - DOH!

It was easiest to see Joe's edge in T1. When Doug was right there, you could watch the gap almost "pop" lap after lap just past the apex.

There was a time a while back when Doug thought that this rivalry would be an interesting test of platforms. He considers the test over in practical terms. Joe's car is about 1-2 tenths faster. That's it.

But wait...there's more.

Joe recently let Doug drive the RWD Mini. Doug compared it favorably to the FWD Mini. Quite favorably. He knows where those tenths come from. <Whispers: "Shhhh...it's the RWD".>

"Yeah, yeah, yeah...but what if the FWD Mini had the motor behind the front axle...what if the cg were further aft...what if...what if....?" Uhm, the Fortech Mini is "optimized" - Give up.

Beyond this it hardly seems an argument worth having. You can make a FWD drive car go pretty good, and actually enjoy driving and racing it. You could do it with a Porsche 911 too. Nothing is perfect. Purpose built race cars with everything going for them have problems too. Pushy here, loose there. The closer you are to the edge of the envelope of whatever platform you have, the more work it is to keep it there - which can fundamentally change the character of the effort.

FWD has only one dynamic advantage over RWD that I know of: the drive thrust vectors. It has many other disadvantages that more than compensate under the vast majority of conditions.

It's all so academic.

Scott, who somehow isn't interested in arguing about any of this. I just want to drive my kaa.

 

Lock this thread and sticky it.

 

Crazy talk as a result of a rusty cod piece.

 

wasn't there just one of ........

 

To the extent that people need to feel "good" about what they race, then I believe there is merit to the FWD/RWD discussion, but only to a point, because objective data takes the debate only so far and eventually yields to people's subjectivities and passions. Fine, whatever -- race what you like or run what you brung.

Casey, who'd rather race than argue about it, and who would be equally content racing a FWD Honda product or one of those RWD contraptions like a Miata....

 

Casey,

Quite right!

And imagine how much worse it could be:

http://www.mtwc.co.uk/klaus3.htm

Scott, who can only rationalize so much...and it seems like alot at times....but...really...

 

"Shut up and play yur guitar." - Frank Z.

"Shut up and drive yur car." - Scott R.

w3rd

 

Why argue about it......just race both at the same time....

 

Unicycle Motocross: Casing a Double never hurt so much.

Scott, who is picturing a special competition - like that Japanese thing I see dubbed humorously - between Sidecar Monkeys, Unicycle Racers, and Moggy Lovers...it's a painful picture.

 

Motorcycles are better then cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And imagine how much worse it could be:

http://www.mtwc.co.uk/klaus3.htm

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lol! Let's save the pro/con discussion about lifting the inside wheel on that vehicle for another time, shall we?

 

Guys,
Missed out on the ending of the other thread, the WIFE made me spend the day with her shopping and all its ok I get to race next weekend tho, even today in the news we can read about things happening.
Unfortunately NASA may have to wait a while longer to launch a satellite, to test, maybe change maybe not, a couple of Einstein's theories and predictions.
Arguing politely is not a bad thing, that's why we have advanced as far as we have as humans.
Without Einstein stubbornness, many of Nature Law's would not have changed, but with better science anything is possible NOTHING IS ICTHED IN STONE "our earlier humans, found our world is round or mostly round, "yes even the cave man had Laws they followed with the technology that they had at the time", we will be farther behind our future if we take the approach that things can't change.
Clyde

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamFlewellen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...NOTHING IS ICTHED IN STONE...</TD></TR></TABLE>

kinda goes back to what my mother used to tell me: never go scratching a rock troll, he might be ticklish...


sorry, tired, sunburned, long weekend...

ahem, Scott, I know what a Sidecar Monkey is (tried it myself, on an old CB400, open headers, off-roads in the woods with a psycho behind the handlebars - those were the fun days...), as well as a Unicycle racer. But what the hell is a Moggy Lover?

 

Sebastien,

Did you click on the link?

Did you look at the ridiculous device?

Like everything, it depends on who you ask, but that is undeniably a Moggy.

Other more luxurious (hehehe) Moggy's were produced subsequently.

Scott, who has a friend with a very beautiful Moggy...yet I wouldn't consider anything beyond just looking at it. They're kind of like a beautiful woman who surprises you by chaining you to the bed and going S&M on your ***.

&lt;Shhh....I actually kind of think Morgan 3-Wheelers are cool...I think part of me hates myself&gt;

 

A few more pictures of one of those Morgans from the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix, taken by yours truly:

http://janice.fringe.org/pvgp/images/DSCF0178.jpg

http://janice.fringe.org/pvgp/images/DSCF0180.jpg

http://janice.fringe.org/pvgp/images/DSCF0182.jpg

Wacky looking machine, you can see a few more of the details here. This particular example was in great shape--one of my favorites of the weekend.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

TeamFlewellen
You gotta quit saying laws change, by their definition they cannot. Just our understanding changes.

brian g
one of the silly people

 

aaaahhhh! I see. I had clicked on the link, just my brain did not (click that is)

You should probably incorporate your fantasy competition into the special olympics. No offense intended to the participants of the games.

hmmm, I wonder if there is a 5-wheeled contraption out there to include in the odd-wheeled vehicle challenge...

 

Hey Scott -

Good way to start out, with the GT-5 comparison. I've watched both those guys at the runoffs. It's kind of ironic, take the classic FWD example and make it RWD.

So much of this is academic though....I don't ever plan on racing in an unlimited class...so it really just depends what class you're in, what cars are allowed, and what is the killer setup to have. In classes that mix FWD/RWD cars there are always other factors too - weight, hp, etc. So it's probably never that clearcut.

Oh well,

- Markus

 

Brain g,
I am using Law correctly, are you?

LAW - Rules "established" by a "governing authority" to institute and maintain orderly coexistence.

Natural law "I like using Nature instead of Natural"; which could be understood by all creatures " even those still in the jungle, that no nothing of Mr. Newton or Einstein", lacked the perfection of faith, and could be IMPROVED "I like tweaked some like adjusted" by philosophy; "which is not itched in stone by any human".

Law is generally divided into four principle classes, namely: Natural law; The law of nations; Public law; and, Private or civil law " and they all have something in common, they all change some take longer then other".
Anyone else,
Clyde

 

the written laws may change, but the laws of nature themselves in the way things interact with each other do not.

give it up. stop digging yourself deeper into a hole. even if we conceded to your most recent ramblings, it does nothing to support your fight for FWD equality or supremicy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamFlewellen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Without Einstein stubbornness, many of Nature Law's would not have changed, but with better science anything is possible NOTHING IS ICTHED IN STONE "our earlier humans, found our world is round or mostly round, "yes even the cave man had Laws they followed with the technology that they had at the time", we will be farther behind our future if we take the approach that things can't change.
Clyde</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. There was a time way back when when there were front-wheel drive indy cars. They were abandoned as power levels increased because they were slower.

As has been said a bajillion times, FWD is competetive until power levels increase, as they inevitably do at the CUTTING EDGE of competition in which you are so interested. Over the past hundred years teams have been able to experiment with every powertrain combination known to man. All have chosen rear or all-wheel drive.

 

tnord,

No industry authority to my knowledge has come out with any itched in stone conclusion, as it related to as you say FWD or for that matter "equality or supremacy".

FIA engineers, did some studies on this subject, and wrote some papers and develop some models to test, years ago.

The cars drive-line layout was not RWD or FWD, they had the engine under and slightly beside the driver with Active suspension , CVT and a smart AWD system deployed, but the theory did not get be adopted by FIA for what ever reason.
Clyde

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamFlewellen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No industry authority to my knowledge has come out with any itched in stone conclusion, as it related to as you say FWD or for that matter "equality or supremacy". </TD></TR></TABLE>

And with that, this thread is done. This is really stupid... I tried cleaning the other one up in hopes of some decent discussion, but oh well.

You and eg6infinite should go start your own FWD supremecy board.

:fizzle: