After a few warmup laps this past weekend, my instructor said he wanted to drive my car to show me the lines, etc... I agreed and handed him the keys. (eventhough i already knew the lines)

Going around the track the first time was fine. The second time around, he came into a corner too fast and went off toward the tire wall, but stopped the car in time. "oops, he said." as I think to myself, "wtf".

The 3rd time around the track, he misses 4th gear and revs it to like 10K, then does it again, and then a 3rd time!!! "oops, I couldn't find the gear. This isn't like a wrx." I just think to myself, "no ****"

The 4th time around the track, we're coming down the long back stretch where I get into 5th, he's about half way through the straight, just bouncing the rev limiter at least 10 times in 4th. At this point I'm getting extremely pissed and said, "I've been here before, I know the lines and you know you are bouncing the rev-limiter?" "yeah, guess I should have shifted." was the reply.

On the first lap during my next session, I try to put it in 5th down the front stretch and clunkity clunk, keeeek, crunch, bam boom bam, my 5th gear synchro takes a **** as I tried to put it gear. It goes in gear, but only after a big crunch.

 

i never let an instructor drive my car. there was a rather long and heated debate about this probably about a year and a half ago........you might be able to find it if you search.

what sanctioning body was this with?

 

I would have said something to him before the end of the weekend but bottom line is you should not let other people drive your car if you don't know what you're going to do if they damage it. In my opinion instructors should not be running around driving students' cars. If they want to show a student the line the instructor can take his own damned car.

In your situation I don't know what the recourse is. You could try to get him to help pay for the damages but he is certainly not liable for them. Just hope maybe he'd pay out of the goodness of his heart.

 

i agree. mail him a copy of the bill that just says on it "no obligation, just information," and see what he does.

how was your instructor otherwise?

 

Basically, you could be SOL if the instructor totals the car.

In your case, I would have asked him to pit after the first incident. There is no excuse for off-course adventures in borrowed cars.

After all those incidents in one session, did you ask for another instructor? It would appear the one you were assigned didn't know much about driving.

 

I've always felt if you let someone drive your car they are responsible for whatever damages occur. Flatspotting tires, going into walls, etc. I would NEVER let somebody drive my car unless that is the agreement.

 

Regardless of what you should have done then, I would recommend that you tell whatever sanctioning body was running the event about the incident. If he did this to you, odds are he has done or will do it to others.

 

1. It sounds like your instructor shouldn't have been instructing

2. A good instructor will not ask the student to drive his car and if he does only if the student REALLY needs help and the instructor has no passenger seat

3. You are SOL now. You should have discussed damage stuff with him before handing him the keys or not handed him the keys

4. Sounds like your instructor shouldn't have been instructing

5. See #1 and #4

 

*has learned much from this thread*

If I were in your situation I would do the "no obligation, just information" bit on the bill.

And report it to the sanctioning body...send them a copy of the bill too

 

I wouldn't send him a bill, a copy of a bill, a bill of sale or a copy of Kill Bill - car owner's responsibility entirely. Anything the other driver were to do would be entirely voluntary and I assume by the tone of this he's made no volunteering. I don't think you can hurt a syncro by riding on the rev limiter nor by an off. Whenever I read stuff like this, I always think there is another entirely different side to the story - letting a guy make multiple mistakes in your car sounds like either they were not that bothersome or considered significant mistakes at the time or only became a too much a concern after something happened to your car while you were driving it. I would hope this post is not a simple means to convince yourself of who's responsibility if you are on the fence - if you are, that's a good sign you already know its on you and not him/her (at least there's a good lesson for the future with that).

Sorry for the rant but this stuff gets my kackles up. Rental agreement, totally different story, this is not like that IMO.

 

i'm not sure what i'm more amazed at:

- that an instructor did that and seemed to have no problems with doing that to someone else's car

or

- you continued to let him drive your car after the first incident


as everyone has said. do not allow an anyone (instructor or otherwise) drive your car unless you are willing to live with the consequences.

 

I agree with Lance - I would have asked the instructor after the near miss with the wall to bring the car in.

I won't let an instructor drive my car unless they agree to drive it ONLY to show me the line (i.e., drive civil) - not to get a free run and test out my suspension, or whatever their possible ulterior motivation may be.

If they want to push my car - I'd have to have a written agreement that IF something were to happen - they'd be responsible.

I haven't been put in a situation where I had to ask an instructor for that - but I would not hesitate.

Friends driving friends cars is SLIGHTLY different - but I think my friends know my moto - you break it, you fix it. And I know that is their moto when I drive their car.

How can any instructor or anyone at all actually think that its not the responsibility of the driver??

 

What's that called, the theory of the miraculous?

What is more miraculous, that all this occurred as written above and 2 misshifts, an off and a ride on the RL by one driver destroyed the syncros of 5th gear?

OR

that the driver had a syncro going and had done significant damage LONG before this time and is painting history of this event with a black brush as to ease the embarrasment of what he himself should own.

Figure out which one is more miraculous and I'll believe the other one.

Sorry to the poster and I do feel for him but the situation sounds like someone painting history with a very dark stroke without regard to what events he contributed to leading up to it - irrespective of him letting the instructor drive the car.

 

phat-S - sounds like:
Occam's razor...

when everything else is impossible the simplest solution is often correct.

I agree that the syncro was going already, but that doesn't excuse the instructor's behavior/driving. Now, if he had overreved the engine and dropped a valve... I'd say he's liable.


Modified by Chris N at 1:42 PM 4/19/2004

 

I don't have problems with instructors driving student's car provided that the following takes place:

1) Student ask for such service
2) Student has never been on the track before (doesn't know the line)
3) Instructor drives the car at 6 to 7/10ths to show the student the line
4) Instructor has years of experience

Number 4 isn't adheared to much anymore by many clubs who don't have enough instructors. Versus 5 years ago the average skill lvel of an instructor at a DE is very low. Back in the mid 90's before the track day boom most instructors were racers (not always a good thing) or people who had been doing this for years.

A good instructor is a safe one and that extends to both seats (passenger seat and drivers seat).

Your biggest mistake was when he went off the track. Right there and then you should have said I want to go in and have antoher instructor assigned.

Unless he hit oil, something one the car broke through no fault of his own, or some other thing he had no control over happened there is absolutely no excuse for going off track in a students car. You should never be going that fast in someone else's car....PERIOD.

The fact that you didn't mention it at the track, and you continued to let him drive after he continually abused your car at 10/10ths means you have absolutely no recourse whatsover.

It's his responsibility to drive you car in a safe manner with your permission, BUT it's your responsibility to let the instructor know he isn't doing so and that you want to end the session and get another instructor.

Regards,

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris N &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I won't let an instructor drive my car unless they agree to drive it ONLY to show me the line (i.e., drive civil) - not to get a free run and test out my suspension, or whatever their possible ulterior motivation may be.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If he really wanted to show you the line he could have done so in his own car.

This has the feeling of a typical sexual harrassment suit... I didn't really want him to drive my car, but he was my instructor and I was scared to say no. In the future, think things through ahead of time and stand up for yourself.

I agree with Scott though... you're SOL.

BTW, this instructor wasn't wearing a Ferarri driving suit was he?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If he really wanted to show you the line he could have done so in his own car. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree.

 

Catch22 said it best

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. It sounds like your instructor shouldn't have been instructing
2. A good instructor will not ask the student to drive his car and if he does only if the student REALLY needs help and the instructor has no passenger seat

3. You are SOL now. You should have discussed damage stuff with him before handing him the keys or not handed him the keys

4. Sounds like your instructor shouldn't have been instructing

5. See #1 and #4</TD></TR></TABLE>

The only time an instructor drove my car was my first time ever on track (Jefferson circuit) and the instructor drove at 5/10th. If the instructor wanted to show you the line it should have been done in his car.

Unfortunately, like others said, you may be SOL.

 

I totally agree with phatty. My only points were...

- If he really was that sloppy why was he instructing?
- Owner is SOL. Would have been SOL if the instructor had planted it in the tire wall and just walked off. Damage liability is the car owners baby. Settle it before handing over keys or keep your mouth shut.

But yeah, theres nothing on that list of boo boos that would damage a 5th gear synchro.

 

I seriously question this instructor's abilities, based on what you say.
As an instructor, I have never, and will never ask to drive a student's car. In my opinion, a good instructor should be able to know what the differences are between his and your car, and teach accordingly.. verbally.. without ever setting foot in your driver's seat.
If an instructor ever ASKS to drive your car.. just say no.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If he really wanted to show you the line he could have done so in his own car.

BTW, this instructor wasn't wearing a Ferarri driving suit was he? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not all organizations give track time to the instructors (hence they don't bring their track car) and not all instructors have street cars with two seats. So this isn't always the case.

Be careful about making comments about drivers wearing Ferrari suits, you never know there may be some on this site who wear such a suit!!!


Cheers,

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Not all organizations give track time to the instructors (hence they don't bring their track car) and not all instructors have street cars with two seats. So this isn't always the case.

Be careful about making comments about drivers wearing Ferrari suits, you never know there may be some on this site who wear such a suit!!!


Cheers,

Jon

</TD></TR></TABLE>


That thing got a Hemi?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Be careful about making comments about drivers wearing Ferrari suits, you never know there may be some on this site who wear such a suit!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't be offended Jon, thats a old joke for a goofball name Gettoracer who like to driver stundets cars a brag about it, and in the pics he would take he was in this flame red driving suit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't be offended Jon, thats a old joke for a goofball name Gettoracer who like to driver stundets cars a brag about it, and in the pics he would take he was in this flame red driving suit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

[EDIT] Tried posting the pix in question...gave up

 

I wonder how some people get to be called "instructors."

I would never drive a student's car unless he fainted on course and I had to grab the wheel (I've had offers every time and always said "let me take you out in my car), and I trust myself not to have an off in just about anything with fenders.

I can't imagine how somebody who's only driven a WRX hard, (apparently), could possibly in good conscience get behind the wheel of his student's car on a racetrack.

I feel bad for you, your instructor's actions make me very angry.

But you fucked up by letting him continue to drive the car.