I'm very confused about harnesses, mounting locations, safety, and roll bars/ cages.....
i have read many threads and **** about all these things but i still got some Q's:

1. Mounting points for harnesses. Is it true that if you have a harness w/o a harness bar, not mounted shoulder level, like mounted to the chassis (like near the rear seat belts), that you can hurt you spine? If this is true, how/when can u hurt your spine, is it just in a serious accident???

2. Seats. I read that you shouldn't use reclining seats w/ harness and roll bar, is this true? If it is, then why and can you use just harnesses w/ reclining seats (no roll bar/cage), or reclining seats w/ just roll bar(no harnesses)?


also if i decide to run harnesses in the future.....
What about this: no air bags w/ racing steering wheel and (since i need to remove the passenger air bag if i remove the drivers side airbag) a blocker tray for the passenger side, Recaro SRD's, 4 point harnesses, and a roll bar (prob a autopower one) w/ a removable harness bar (b/c i want to still be able to recline the seats).

This doesn't really apply to racing or any thing, I don't really care if any of this is legal in certain races, I just posted this in the road racing/autocross forum cuz you guys will most likely know more about this, and I just want some info on this stuff....and for the stuff that pertains to my car, I will only be doing track days (like hpde's) and autox's.....

 

how far back do you need to lay? Most harness bars I've seen allow you to sit in a normal position.

 

well i like the idea of a removable harness bar, so i can remove it, cuz i got no rear seats and the front seat recline all the way down and lay flat. i'd like to be able to do that, when i want to (like on the passenger side)

 

Well, one of the biggest things I heard about safety which makes sense is that without a rollbar, in the event of a rollover, you wouldn't be able to move yourself out of the way from the roof caving down on you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emissionsux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, one of the biggest things I heard about safety which makes sense is that without a rollbar, in the event of a rollover, you wouldn't be able to move yourself out of the way from the roof caving down on you.</TD></TR></TABLE>yea i know that, any 1 know the answers to my Q's?

 

1. Mounting points: There is a certain range of angles that the harness should be at with respect to your shoulders. Check out any of the harness installation guides (links in the FAQ) for pictures of it. If the angle is too steep, as in straight down behind the seat to the floor, your spine could be compressed in an accident.

2. Seats: This is a semi-debatable topic. Really, you should only use seats specifically designed to work with harnesses. Most stock seats have the problem of (1) having the shoulder belts slide off the top of the seat if not properly situated wrt to the headrest, thus providing no protection and (2) the 5th/6th point subbelts don't work perfectly with the way the stock seat is constructed. I don't know if the SRDs are made to accomodate the subbelt, but as an example of how the seat SHOULD be made:



See how the little strap comes up around the crotch? That's the 5th point. It should come up through the center of the seat like that. For a stock seat, it'd have to come all the way around from the front, and I know with my harnesses, they weren't even long enough, so it wasn't an issue. Cutting a hole in the stock seat isn't really a solution either, as the inside of the seat isn't made to support the stress that would be applied by the belt in the event of an accident.

On that topic, 4-point harnesses are generally unaccepted, as in the event of an accident, you could submarine (or slide under) the lap belts and get squished into the footwell, breaking whatever bones might be in the way (legs, feet, hip, etc.). The 5- and 6-point harnesses provide the subbelt to prevent that (the crotch strap), and to pull the lap belt down to the proper position on your waist. The 4-points tend to ride up sort of into your stomach, and could potentially cause problems in an accident.

While I don't know for sure, I've heard the removable harness bar is a bitch to put in and take out, so if you're thinking about just quickly yanking it out for either a nap or some front-seat love, it may not work out. Any safety issues with improper installation or improper equipment for anything to do with seats/harnesses/rollbars is only an issue when in an accident. That seems pretty self-explanatory, as if you're just sitting there, of course there wouldn't be a problem. Hope that answers your questions, and be safe about it, all of this stuff is working to save your life.

On a sidenote, if this car isn't going to be tracked/autoxed/raced, the whole rollbar/harness thing is pretty unnecessary.

 

ok thanks for all the info

 

ive had some questions concerning harness bars as well.

i see lots of autoXers, etc. with harnesses but no harness bars... fact is im just scared of getting my spine crushed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the angle is too steep, as in straight down behind the seat to the floor, your spine could be compressed in an accident.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so if the harness is fastened to the car at a very..uh.. non-steep angle... say from a point where the rear seats usually are.. its not as dangerous?

i plan on autoXing a whole lot more often this season.. and i just dont like sliding around (im really skinny).. so a supportive seat/harness makes sense.

another issue.. in STS.. harnesses and seats are allowed, but the seats must recline, and most reclining seats (including the SRD) dont have holes for a 5th point strap. whats the deal?

tia

 

hey watsup sean, i remember u from JDMI, your kyle's friend right?
so u fucked up that green hatch......haha....sux


this is the harness i'm lookin into getin:


it's street legal and it can be mounted to the c pillar....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R-Spec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it's street legal and it can be mounted to the c pillar....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Have fun with that......

 

I had plenty of fun with my Schroth Rally 3's on the track!.

I'd rock em for HPDEs but nothing competitive. If you are planning on wheel to wheel stuff, you'd have to check with the sanctioning bodies as far as safety equipment.

-Charlie

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most stock seats have the problem of (1) having the shoulder belts slide off the top of the seat if not properly situated wrt to the headrest, thus providing no protection...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are we referring to seats like the Miata's, here, where the shoulder belts can't really hit your shoulders properly because the non-slotted headrest is in the way? With seats like the Integra's posted above, I don't see how that shoulder harness arrangement would be ineffective, if the harnesses were tight on your shoulders like they should be and mounted at a proper shallow angle.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(2) the 5th/6th point subbelts don't work perfectly with the way the stock seat is constructed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I asked this in this forum once before because I have two sets of Sparco 3" 5-point belts I got for a song. One set is missing the crotch strap, and I intend to use them in a car with stock seats, so I asked if it would be safe to replace both crotch straps with 6-points and attach the end of the crotch straps at the same point as the lap belts. I was told it should be. Apparently, this is what 6-point belts were originally designed for - to loop around the legs. This seems like the right thing to do for anyone that wants to run harnesses and stock seats.

Obviously an FIA-approved seat is the best choice, but for a lot of us that are just using harnesses for autocross or HPDE, an aftermarket seat might be illegal for the class, or uncomfortable on the street in a dual-purpose car, or just plain out of the budget.

 

First, the harness bar question: that's sort of a grey area, especially when comparing autoxing to HPDEs. A lot of people have done that (attaching the shoulder belts to rear seatbelt points), so you'll get mixed answers. Usually, that winds up being too steep of an angle, which is why it would be frowned upon. It would also make the shoulder straps really long, which could affect how much they stretch upon impact. For the C-pillar attachment, everyone I've talked to has said that to be a real big no-no, as if the C-piller were to buckle, your belt would become way lose (or real tight, though that seems less likely), in either case immediately becoming ineffective. Mounting to the floor or bar is a much better decision IMO.

AKADriver, you're right, the Integra seats wouldn't be bad with the headrest design. I'm not sure what you mean by the 6-point thing, I'd have to see a picture. If you were just looping the crotch strap up around the front of the seat, that would be best for use with a stock seat, but I was talking about it not being strong enough if you cut a hole in the middle of the seat, so that the belt would be mounted in the way as with the FIA seat. On that subject, 4-points seem more acceptable for autoxing than for HPDEs, and I think ultimately the "okayness" of belt-choice and mounting design will be up to the tech inspectors and instructors.

Just to make this clear, I am certainly no authority on these matters, I've just done as much research as I can on the subject and talked to as many official-type people as possible.

 

I don't have a picture, but to clarify what I mean by mounting a 6-point:

Instead of routing the crotch straps of a 6-point through the seat and mounting them to the floor under the seat, route the crotch straps under your thighs/butt and mount them to the same points as the lap belts, or somewhere in that area (like the seat rail bolts).

Here's the thread where I asked originally if this would be okay:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=651423

 

Ok, I think I understand that better, and for a 6-point, that does seem like a better option than wrapping it around the front of the seat. That may even be the case for a 5-point, though it might also be uncomfortable.

 

For correct geometry, the Harness should be mounted to a guide bar or mount bar. Ideally, the belts should come off your shoulders between zero and fifteen degrees down.

A harness bar alone is not a safe on the track as a roll bar. But I still think it's better than running harnesses to some random point in the car. Whatever you mount your harness too, it's got to be strong.

A 60 mph impact with two average sized occupants can put over six thousand pounds of load on that bar, or more than twice the weight of the car.

 

so the frame of the car is not strong enough? aren't the stock seat belts bolted to the frame of the car??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R-Spec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so the frame of the car is not strong enough? aren't the stock seat belts bolted to the frame of the car??</TD></TR></TABLE>

i would think it would be, but stock seat belts are only 3 point belts.. 4, 5, and 6 point should mount *only* to a bar or furtherback in the cabin(roughly the vicinity of the rear seat)..

and even though integra headrests are designed better, there is no "guide" to hold the belt in place and it could still slip off the shoulder..

couldn't it be argued that 4, 5, and 6 point belts shouldn't be used with non-bucket seats anyway? i mean, are the hinge points on a reclinable seat going to take the stress of an impact without breaking/buckling? i would think they wouldn't take that..

 

well i was reading this: http://www.soloracer.com/harnschrothfaq.html (which i found in the FAQ for this forum) and i saw this:


so by what that shows/says, the C-pillar(NOT a C-pillar bar) or D would be good places to mount this harness.
I was thinking of mounting it to the C-pillar and using Recaro SRD seats:

which have harness guides for the shoulder belts

 

eh.. i guess the pictures say different..

but I got this from Schroth's website:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Schroth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1) Shoulder strap attachment height
Strap routing behind the shoulder should be horizontal. For application w/o HANS
a downward routing up to 20° is acceptable. Strap length behind the seat back
should not exceed 750 mm.
If HANS is in use, the anchorages must be raised by the thickness of HANS at
shoulder points. The strap routing must be horizontal. If a downward routing can
not be avoided maximum 20° are acceptable. The strap length behind the seat
should not exceed 200 mm.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

is it more than .75 meters to your c-pillar? (about 2.25 feet?) seems awful far to me.. i'd just put the damn harness bar in and call it a day.. safety is more important than using your car as a bed any day..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R-Spec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so the frame of the car is not strong enough? aren't the stock seat belts bolted to the frame of the car??</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, the frame is strong enough if you mount the harness bar to seat belt anchoring points, which must meet DOT certification anyway.

(edited for clarity)


Modified by Angry Joe at 10:27 PM 4/5/2004

 

yeah im kyles friend, unfortunately

and uh.. i had to learn the hardway not to pretend that the street is not a racetrack, i understeered into a tree

on me for stupidity

anyways, no one answered my question.. which concerns harnesses for STS cars. you cant remove the rear seats so a harness bar wont fit, will it? and are harness bars even legal per sts rules? plus you can only technically use 3 and 4 pt. harnesses since most reclinable seats (or rather, all) dont have holes for a 5th pt. strap. im lost. harnesses boggle my mind

 

As for the points in the seat, route them to the stock seatbelt points though the seat. Aka the buckle and the waist band anchor points.

Harness bars are legal for STS rules. Most seats that I've seen have a hole for a 5 pt still, but just stick to a 4 point as I hope you don't intend upon running into things for STS.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah im kyles friend, unfortunately

and uh.. i had to learn the hardway not to pretend that the street is not a racetrack, i understeered into a tree

on me for stupidity

anyways, no one answered my question.. which concerns harnesses for STS cars. you cant remove the rear seats so a harness bar wont fit, will it? and are harness bars even legal per sts rules? plus you can only technically use 3 and 4 pt. harnesses since most reclinable seats (or rather, all) dont have holes for a 5th pt. strap. im lost. harnesses boggle my mind </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can run a 6-point by fastening the ends where the lap belts are, and running them over the sides (NOT the front) of the seat. It's not ideal but still the best solution with stock seats...

 

I thought that for '04 you could run a non-reclinable seat as long as it was 15 pounds or more.

Or is that only stock class?