i'm working on building a B series motor on paper, and i wanna figure out how to get H22-like torque out of a b18c block.

H22 .........................................B18C1 ................................... MINE
bore: 87mm ............................bore: 81mm ...................... bore: 84mm
stroke: either 90 or 91mm .........stroke: 87mm ......................stroke: ??
(i don't remember)

ok, if i know for a fact and i hear a fair many testimonials proving that i can use an 85mm bore for a reliable street application, i will probably go ahead and try it. this IS for a street car tho, and it has to last. so it will probably be 84mm. as for the stroke, i was thinking of 93mm or so. i'll be adding a deck plate to increase the stroke. here's where i want opinions: will a 93mm stroke give me a torque figure close to that of the H22? if not, should i go with a 94mm or even 95mm stroke? also, i want this motor to rev to about 8500. will such a long stroke cause the engine to rev too slowly? i don't want it to just work its way to the top of the powerband, i want it to rev decently fast. if i knife-edge and micropolish the crank (which will probably be the 3.504 LS crank, not the 3.7xx GSR crank) will it rev fine? is it possible to go with a bigger stroke and still have it rev ok? i don't need it to whip up like a b16b, but i'd like it rev about as fast as my stock gsr, or better.

and btw, please don't offer advice if you're not 100% sure about what you're saying and if you're basing your advice off of what you've heard, not what you've experienced first hand. i just don't need to sift through the posts and figure out which ones are good, and which are trash.

thanks in advance

 

looks like u want a b20?

 

yes, a B20 with a longer stroke, a worked crank, and all the vtec neccessities. i'd rather use the B18C because its already setup for vtec, and the pumps are better. and, i have one already.

 

I would just bore the engine and leave the stroke alone unless you plan on going with one of those rediculously expensive aftermarket cranks.

 

sleave the motor and have it bored to 86 mm. then you would need a custom crank. im not sure what company is the cheapest or best. maybe some1 else could chime in. custom cranks require custom rods tho too, and the higher the strkoe the worse your rod/strkoe ratio will be which means you may even want to get some custom pistons in which the wristpin is higher. i know people are using these pistons when they put b18 crank and rods in a b16, this way they keep the b18 r/s.

 

i would rather convert a B20 into a vtec engine than boring out a B18C

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by opiumdaze &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would rather convert a B20 into a vtec engine than boring out a B18C</TD></TR></TABLE>

but why spend more money then you have too?

 

with a 93mm stroke, that 8,500 RPM limit is a pipe dream. Keep the stroke the same.

First, you need to know that you are in the wrong car for lots of torque. If you need alot of torque out of a honda, you're going to have to go forced induction.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notstock93 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with a 93mm stroke, that 8,500 RPM limit is a pipe dream. Keep the stroke the same.

First, you need to know that you are in the wrong car for lots of torque. If you need alot of torque out of a honda, you're going to have to go forced induction.</TD></TR></TABLE>

an 8500 rev limit is NOT a dream with a 93mm stroke. i know what i'm looking for. i'm not expecting torque figures that a V8 would put out. DUH!! like i said, i'm looking for torque figures similar to an H22. PAY ATTENTION!

 

How do you figure its NOT a dream? Do you know what location your wrist pins are going to be to increase the abysmal rod ratio you'll have? do you realize the S2000 has a 90mm stroke (04) and for that reason, does not rev higher than 8,200? Do you realize that even if you manage to get that high of redline from the low rod ratio, the piston dwell will sacrifice high RPM power? Dont be a moron, and dont assume I dont know what im talking about.

Looks like you have some research to do

Or, you could just do what you want. G'head, take it to 8,500 with a 93mm stroke on a streetmotor, see where that gets you. Dipshit.

 

maybe get ur b18c1 sleeved and just go with ls crank and aftermarket ls rods, then off the shelf pistons for a b-series motor. with 86mm pistons, 13.5:1 compression.....OR LS crank, then aftermarket b18c rods with custom pistons for a higher redline. add some really wild cams in the mix with a good valve train and you will have more torque than you will ever need in a na street motor. i forgot to say with as large of pistons as 86mm, you will want oversized valves too.

 

I think you're missing the obvious. Just get an H22 swap. They're pretty cheap as far as swaps go. In fact I bet you could sell your GSR swap, buy an H22 and have a little change left over to put towards mounts. The H22 is a bad dog, plus if you treat it right it will last. You're talking about modifying the crap out of a 1.8 engine and spending $5-$10K and in the end having something that probably isn't very reliable vs. an engine that came from the factory making the power you want and when it was new Honda gave it a warranty, so they expected it to stay together. If you still want to spend some money bring it up to ETR specs. Plus think about this, if you break this $10,000 engine you built, it will cost another $10k to build another one. If you break an H22 go get another one for $2k. If you want the GSR because you read somewhere that the H22 makes your car handle poorly, FORGET it. I've made last second 90* turns at speed and never even noticed. Only after driving my buddy's H22 hatch did I hear that they handled poorly. Unless you plan to go into some kind of twisty track competition you'll never notice it.

 

thing is people think o its only a gsr....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KraZEtEggIE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thing is people think o its only a gsr....</TD></TR></TABLE>

exactly

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notstock93 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you figure its NOT a dream? Do you know what location your wrist pins are going to be to increase the abysmal rod ratio you'll have? do you realize the S2000 has a 90mm stroke (04) and for that reason, does not rev higher than 8,200? Do you realize that even if you manage to get that high of redline from the low rod ratio, the piston dwell will sacrifice high RPM power? Dont be a moron, and dont assume I dont know what im talking about.

Looks like you have some research to do

Or, you could just do what you want. G'head, take it to 8,500 with a 93mm stroke on a streetmotor, see where that gets you. Dipshit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i'm a dipshit huh? i know about the specs of an S2000. realize that the S2000 is under warranty, and its not built like an aftermarket motor would be built. i know about wrist pin location and all that too. so don't assume i don't know what i'm talking about either. i'm sure it can be done. also, realize i wasn't sure about the 93mm stroke in the first place. hence the question marks around it. and there's companies that make aftermarket cranks especially for what i'm doing. so if the LS crank didn't work out and i went with a bigger crank, my r/s ratio would not have to be so extreme.

put some ice on your nuts and chill out man

 

People will think its a GSR?
Are these people going to be blind?
How will they not see your deck plate?
And how long will your huge GSR be a secret?
And why does it have to be a secret ? Are you a big playa street racer?
Maybe you could race for the respect like in the Fast & the Furious.
People that spend huge money to build sleepers make no sense to me. Yeah, you know its fast and so will everyone else as soon as you race someone. Then what? Theres a guy with a fiberglass GSR Hatchback around here. I've traveled 60 miles away to pick up stuff and when I tell them where I live they ask if I know him. They know his name, he's never met them. He's not trying to be a sleeper but everyone knows what he has. They'll know what you have too. Save your bucks go H. The sleeper thing will last a month then, you'll realize you wasted your bucks.

If you have to stay "sleeper" it would be a 2.156 liter GSR. Sleeve it and bore it to 84, add a B20A style billet/forged crank and get around 2.156L. Crower made B20A cranks to use H22 rods. The R/S ratio would be 1.505 since the H22 rod is 0.236" longer than a B20B rod. Use a high volume/high pressure oil pump to keep the bearings in it. You should be somewhere around or better than an H22 as long as you treat the head right and don't keep it near 8500rpm its whole life, but you'll still have twice as much in it as an H22 swap.


Modified by JohnnieChimpo at 9:56 PM 3/28/2004

 

I think you should sleeve the GSR block out to 85 or 86mm and leave the stroke alone. Going to the LS crank isn't enough gain to worry about and a longer stroke raises piston speeds too high IMO. I can personally attest that 85mm is streetable.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Train &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

exactly

i'm a dipshit huh? i know about the specs of an S2000. realize that the S2000 is under warranty, and its not built like an aftermarket motor would be built. i know about wrist pin location and all that too. so don't assume i don't know what i'm talking about either. i'm sure it can be done. also, realize i wasn't sure about the 93mm stroke in the first place. hence the question marks around it. and there's companies that make aftermarket cranks especially for what i'm doing. so if the LS crank didn't work out and i went with a bigger crank, my r/s ratio would not have to be so extreme.

put some ice on your nuts and chill out man</TD></TR></TABLE>

Didnt mean to get on your nuts about it, man. Had a bad day. In short, No, you do not want to stroke the engine. There are numerous reasons to keep the stroke the same and very few benifits from making it longer. Not to mention, if you do, the High RPM power making ability of the engine will dwindle and side-loading forces on your cylinder walls and pistons will increase substantially. It would be a good idea to get the engine bored, thats a fantastic way to increase displacemtn without altering the character of the engine.

matching the torque output of an H22 is NOT going to be hard, but matching it at the same low RPM will be next to impossible. I would suggest making the most out of boring the engine and run about 11:1.

the increase in CR will increase torque througout the RPM range.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnnieChimpo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People will think its a GSR?
Are these people going to be blind?
How will they not see your deck plate?
And how long will your huge GSR be a secret?
And why does it have to be a secret ? Are you a big playa street racer?
Maybe you could race for the respect like in the Fast & the Furious.
People that spend huge money to build sleepers make no sense to me. Yeah, you know its fast and so will everyone else as soon as you race someone. Then what? Theres a guy with a fiberglass GSR Hatchback around here. I've traveled 60 miles away to pick up stuff and when I tell them where I live they ask if I know him. They know his name, he's never met them. He's not trying to be a sleeper but everyone knows what he has. They'll know what you have too. Save your bucks go H. The sleeper thing will last a month then, you'll realize you wasted your bucks.

If you have to stay "sleeper" it would be a 2.156 liter GSR. Sleeve it and bore it to 84, add a B20A style billet/forged crank and get around 2.156L. Crower made B20A cranks to use H22 rods. The R/S ratio would be 1.505 since the H22 rod is 0.236" longer than a B20B rod. Use a high volume/high pressure oil pump to keep the bearings in it. You should be somewhere around or better than an H22 as long as you treat the head right and don't keep it near 8500rpm its whole life, but you'll still have twice as much in it as an H22 swap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ok lemme answer a few of your questions.....
yes people think its a gsr because it will be a gsr...
no, most people that goto street races are not blind.
you dont need a deck plate to stroke a motor, as matter of fact he can use ls crank and rods with off the shelf pistons. the blocks are identical deck height and bore. with the extra bracing the gsr block has(girdle) he should have no problem revving the living **** out of this motor. esp with the sleeves.
as long as he builds the motor right and doesnt tell any1 what he really has he should be abled to keep it a secret to the death.
y should every1 know whats done to your motor? more chance for it to be stolen. doubt hes a big time street racer.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TimoneX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you should sleeve the GSR block out to 85 or 86mm and leave the stroke alone. Going to the LS crank isn't enough gain to worry about and a longer stroke raises piston speeds too high IMO. I can personally attest that 85mm is streetable.</TD></TR></TABLE>
you will be buying rods and pistons anyways for a setup like this y not just do it right, he could have the same r/s ratio with more stroke and it wont cost much more at all. $100 for an ls crank, the pistons will need to be the same as people use when putting b18c crank + rods in a b16, then the rods will need to be custom length, i believe 6mm longer than ls. alot of shops carry these pistons in stock in many compression ratios however i doubt they will have them in 86mm in stock, so you may want to order them. call up a piston company and see how far up they can move the wristpin without loosing reliability. this will make the motor safe for higher rpm than a gsr.
IF YOU ARE ON A BUDGET.... sleeve your b18c, then buy an ls shortblock, pull the crank and rods, have the rods shot peened, then get 86mm pistons. well worth every penny either way.