How do I start, H'mm, OK it's long but, if you care to help I'd appreciate if you read it all, I'll try to be as quick and entertaining as possible.


OK about this time Last year I went to my first HPDE with NASA at Limerock park. After doing more than a dozen Autocrosses all over the Tri-State area I wanted to make the jump to the roadcourse and see if it was for me. Suffice to say it was.

This started in a 2001 Integra R on Azenis sports with less than 20,000 miles on the odo. It currently has 35,000 and besides the brakes, runs like a precision instrument.

My stock front pads were 50% and rears at least 80%, So I opted for Hawk Blues up front. The fluid was left untouched stock OEM stuff. Now, it was my first DE, so I know that I wasn't nearly as hard on the car or driving Nearly as fast as it could be and I'm sure I wasn't pushing the car even close to what it could handle. But, all I know is that the pedal NEVER sunk or got mushy and the car felt like it could brake like a Speed touring car.

I bedded in the pads without a hitch, and drove the 4 sessions that day totally amazed at how well the simple addition of these pads made the car stop before the dime. I drove home on them being careful of braking a bit earlier and not being overly aggressive when cold.

I left the pads in and actually did a few autocrosses and didn't notice anything bad besides that horrible dust that when wet coated the flanks of my car and stuck to my wheels like quick drying cement. (That rust color is just soo cool )

Fast forward a few months to the next spring, I had removed the pads after noticing just how chewed up my rotors were. I opted for Cobalt OEM replacement rotors and seasoned them the best I knew how but, actually fugged them up and got that nifty vibration from pad residue. After some more heated pad applications, the vibration subsided. Next I opted for ATE super blue since I figured it might be a great idea to change fluids so as to hopefully Not have any of those type of issues. I misbled and actually bled backward to forward, which is totally opposite from the Helm's manual but, my buddy that helped said that the fluid was blue now and he didn't see any bubbles. ( on me for not doing the calipers myself and trusting him.)

I drove to the ITR Expo at Beaverun and swapped in my used Hawk Blues again and my stockers went back in their box. I heated the blues up again as best I thought I should have but, in retrospect and after much since then I know I didn't season the rotors and or bed in the used blues to the new rotors the best way or even the correct way.

I drove the first day with Bryan *** as my instructor. I just wasn't driving well, that's really besides the point. I may very well have been draggin the brakes, and or braking early but, I didn't expect to lose the pedal so suddenly and almost go off the uphill chicane before the front straight. It felt soft and mushy, with NO ABS so I pulled in early on our final session of the first day. Friends of mine helped me bleed the front calipers only and everything felt fine again. Andie from Cobalt just happened bye and helped me out a bit trying to diagnose the problem. He mentioned the Master Cylinder might be going bad or gone. But, for certain recommended re-bleeding.

Next day I'm back on the same course and pushing a bit harder, maybe too hard but, I was learning or trying to learn everything all in one day which in retrospect was a silly way to look at it and a poor way to drive or think I would drive well. Pedal was firm so we went at it again. Almost the same thing into the uphill chicane into the front, but not as bad, so I went on and into turn 1 headlong and just felt the pedal looser and looser and now almost to the floor. BUT, thank God the pads were doping their best to stop us, which they actually did remarkably well. I went around the rest of this lap and got sick of trying to heel-toe and just not being able to and gave up and pitted in. Remember the brakes worked, pads that is, the car stopped just not nearly close to what it once was in the braking department.

We bled again but, by this time it was afternoon and I was tired and decided to take this as a sign and followed my buddy Dave back to NY. I figured it was better to give up early and play it safe.

I went home, swapped back the OEM pads and did a couple of local autocrosses and noticed my pedal still sunk about halfway before it really grabbed, I resigned this to the rotors having some left over hawk blue junk on them and just went with it. But I was certainly NOT satisfied. I did though get used to having the pedal slowly sink after the pads heated up a bit, and learned to compensate and learned to heel-toe the actual classical or correct way as I'm told, with your toe on the brake pedal and heel stabbing the throttle, which was awkward but, worked.

I went the summer doing a few random autocrosses and just getting bye and being unhappy as a whole, but I didn't have any time to any DE's or track days and decided to tackle the brakes again before my next DE.

Up comes Watkin's Glen with NASA again. I decided to get new rotors (Autozone specials just for fugging up) and got my hands on a set of new Cobalt GTR-VR pads for the front and really didn't pay much attention to the rears which were like 75% by this time. I swapped on the rotors, pads and Again rebled the system fully, using a whole can of ATE super blue and having my brother on the pedal and me on the calipers. They bled true with no bubbles, and the pad rotor combo bed, season worked out very well. The pedal was firmer by far but STILL not what I remembered from when it was stock or stock with just the Hawk blues.

I really liked the feel of the GTR VR's and still do. They are a great pad that don't dust nearly as much as the Hawk's and while don't have the same initial feel from engagement, their modulation is smoother across the board.

I drove Watkin's glen the first day and 3 sessions into the day I AGAIN felt the pedal go soft Now I'm gettin pissed to no end. If I didn't notice another friend amongst our group of R's have the exact same issues and rebleed his car, I would have been kicking myself in the head even more wondering what the Hell I'm doing wrong. So I find out others besides have similar issues, they just might not notice them as much or are attuned to the feeling quite as much. I love the R's brakes and have grown to love it's ABS, I just wish the pedal wouldn't fuggin sink.

So we talk a bit between day 1 and day 2 and I hear that my symptoms might be related to a going bad or bad Master Cylinder. H'mm sounds plausible. I drive the next day after being moved up one run group and notice after my first session that the pedal is again soft and sinking. I live with it and since it only goes halfway down I'm not as concerned as when I was at Beaverun. I just don't brake as late, and definitely don't trailbrake and make a concerted effort to NOT drag the brakes or hover over the pedal at all.

By my 4th session which is really my 5th and final, I sat out for a rain shower as to not tempt fate. I decided to go have some fun. I hit the track and really put all the education from my past 12 months and the last 2 days to use and really let loose and go for it in a fun way 8/10ths to be safe but, still push a little. By turn 5 I'm goin a bit deeper and deeper, by turn 6 I am definitely having to DOUBLE PUMP the brake pedal while heel toeing, and although it is awkward, it works and the car stops well enough. But, like I said by this time I am almost just used to this feeling, which while you are reading this definitely is a sucky feeling and I guess is dangerous.

I finish up Great last session, driving Very Well with a few friends that are more experienced in like cars. I was satisfied with my driving only.

So I get back from Watkin's and get on here and a few other sites and start scouring about brakes, fade, bleeding, bedding, seasoning, whatever has to do with brakes, I'm all over it. I call Rusty at Cobalt and we continue where we left off when I ordered the GTR VR's but, now I'm gettin into longer 30 to 45 minute conversations with him about my issues and a lot of what I see and hear is that the Master Cylinder could Still be the culprit. I did all the Helm's manual checks for the brake booster and all indications are that it is just ducky and functioning properly. In Rusty's words "If you replace the MC and fully bleed the system, and the pedal comes back then hopefully you have solved the problem. Another option if the MC is on and the ABS still doesn't activate, then your ABS might be bad and removing that would be another step to get back to where you started."

OK, so now I order a brand new OEM Master Cylinder and 2 cans of ATE type 2 (gold stuff.) I have another Good friend that is very mechanically inclined and an accomplished racer in the Honda community to Bench Bleed and Install the Master Cylinder (even though he didn't believe that is what it was,) and to bleed the snot out of the system so there is no air bubbles and NO residue of the ATE superblue.

We do the deed, and yes he did asked me if I wanted him to remove the dust shields. I didn't think they were an issue and we were running short on time so I left them on.

He looked at my rear pads and noticed them to be about 50% life left and replaced them with 80% OEM pads and after all the bleeding and such we went for a test spin and BAM the pedal was back to where I vaguely remember feeling it to be about a year ago. The thing stops like a Ferrari and the ABS is almost touchy, but, I haven't had ABS in so long I just had to get used to having great brakes again.

So fast forward again to This past Monday the 10th NASA at Limerock Park. I am all set, I did an oil change, I'm ready as ever, I have all my gear, and loads of spare brake parts (just in case but, why do I need 'em We solved the issue right?)

First session is cold as hell, we're sliding all over like at an ice skating rink. The brakes are super, the ABS kicks in when I push a bit too much in the downhill. But, I'm really just testing. I tended to double tap here and there to see if I still needed to. Nope All is good.

Second session, things are warming up, people are warming up and things are moving faster. Brakes are still great.

Third session, We are really moving. I am driving well, I am braking later now. I got it down to 2 in the front straight and that was really having to build a lot of confidence since I had a good natural fear that the brakes would fade. I was passing quite a few people and using a lot of what I had been taught at Watkin's about setting people up for passing and finding inside lines and exploiting their mistakes. It was going very well indeed. An experienced buddy of mine that I respect quite a bit end up swapping positions a few times and then BAM, pedal starts to sink slightly as I tap it coming down the hill to get the front end planted to take the corner even faster.

Now I come into turn 1 and am playing it a bit safer and decide to back off and brake at 3. I misshift as the brake pedal sinks to the floor, ****! Yep, I said it, got it on video too. Then I announce that I'd driving without brakes AGAIN!

I let off a bit and let 2 more buddies bye and feel if I don't push too deep into turn 1 I can loaf around a bit just to cool things off a bit. Then I pit in about 3 minutes early, I actually contemplated bleeding and going back out but, I asked how much time we had and it just wasn't feasible.

So I'm in the pits, and out of the car and definitely pissed. I was doing soo well and damned brakes again!

I'm thinking it can't be fluid we just did that and we were Extra careful about this. I'm thinking about disconnecting the ABS module and seeing if that was it. All the while there is steam or smoke or whatever rising off of my front rotors. Sign?

I sit back for about an hour and contemplate. I decide that if the pedal doesn't come back by the next session, I'm just packing up. I mean the car stops and the pads feel awesome, I just have to double pump the pedal EVERY FRIGGIN TIME and heel-toeing at the same time is no piece of cake. I knew I'd miss a shift again. was it worth it?

The time goes bye, I have some lunch and the intermediate session starts to grid. I get in the car, pump the pedal while off and it is hard as a Rock. I start it up and it sinks about 25% but, negotiable. I go out and do NOT push it at all and end up loafing around a lot and having my arm out the window at every straight, No biggie. Towards the end of the session 3 cars go off most likely due to the setting sun and the surface getting slick again. I can see in the videos now when I was feeling the sliding through the esses. No big deal, just take it back a few notches. Then a buddy of mine goes off in the uphill and that's IT for me! More signs to quit while I'm ahead. these guys brakes are fine and they are all over the place. I'm done.

So back to the drawing board... I call Rusty again (gosh I like talking to this guy, he is just fun as Hell, can't wait to finally meet him.) I go on about my saga and we pick up right where we left off. I mention the MC install, the newer rear pads and the brake fluid flush and whatnot. I also tell him I lasted 3 out of 4 sessions at LRP and the mushy pedal to the floor came right back again when I was really driving hard and moving along.

He mentions boiling fluid and that the first thing I should do is ventilate the area after re-bleeding AGAIN! He mentions removing both the front and rear dust shields, and running some ducts to the front rotors. He also mentions some more aggressive pads After I ask or prod him about them.

Heck, I'm ready to cut holes in the bumper to facilitate the same ducts like D. has on his R and run ducting till the cows come home. I'm ready to remove the dust shields, get more aggressive R compound rear pads, get higher BP racing brake fluid, and I even thought for an instant about getting slotted rotors and new calipers (but, I'd like to solve this as inexpensively as possible.)

If need be though, I'll do whatever it takes. I feel in a different zone now when I drive, everything just flows so well, and I carry so much more speed, The fuggin brakes are just cuttin my learning and sessions short and I'll do just about anything to get them right again. I have another good friend that is getting into HC and is having or had the exact same issues. He has done a lot of removal of plastic underfairing, dust shields, swapped in a new MC and of course rebled and reports none or less fade if any.


So how many of you can attribute your brake fade to boiling your fluid? And if so what do we do to cure this ongoing problem? I guess I'm pretty hard on my brakes but, I find that the faster I drive the harder on them I am and if I want to continue I need better brakes and braking ability.


Thanks you very much in advance, and Yes I have spent loads of time reviewing older postings on all sorts of brake topics. The only thing or person I can truly find that seemed to have the same issue was Willard and I've seen that after he removed his shields he has none or significantly less fade if any.


Anton

 

Cliffnotes: Brake pedal go to the floor during HPDE's. Especially during the end of a session and during later sessions. There is a new MC and pads and rotors are fine. Please help.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cliffnotes: Brake pedal go to the floor during HPDE's. Especially during the end of a session and during later sessions. There is a new MC and pads and rotors are fine. Please help.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks Dave, and must add that bleeding was and has been done correctly and fully.

Damn, I didn't know I wrote all of that?

That was the longest most boring break I've ever taken at work. Ever.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cliffnotes: Brake pedal go to the floor during HPDE's. Especially during the end of a session and during later sessions. There is a new MC and pads and rotors are fine. Please help.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

you boiled the fluid. if you didnt replace them with fresh fluid, do so. if you DID and tehy still boiled, then go to a higher grade fluid.

 

Motul RBF-600. Really. I dare you to boil it.
-Adam

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you boiled the fluid. if you didnt replace them with fresh fluid, do so. if you DID and tehy still boiled, then go to a higher grade fluid. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, but, now I'm boiling ATE superblue AND type2?

Who else is doing this? What the heck am I doing wrong? I've asked my instructors in the past to watch my braking and brake points and make sure I don't drag, hover and whatnot.

I drove LRP solo Int. and as I mentioned above, things were fine when I was warming up, then doing about 7/10th's for the second session, then I get to about 8/10th's in the third session and WHAMMO no brakes. Thank God I was smart enough to know not to push it that much anyway.

The temperature in the morning was about 32 degrees, and didn't break 45 degrees all day.

Rusty wanted me to test temps with a pyrometer. Guess I'll add that gadget to my Christmas wish list.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mityVR6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Motul RBF-600. Really. I dare you to boil it.
-Adam</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm damned ready to take you up on that dare.

BIG QUESTION THOUGH,

I read in the past that the Motul shouldn't be used in a previously used MC with other fluid? Is this correct?

Can anyone and everyone expound upon the Motul 600 brake fluid option and specs? Is it ok for the R's system? How is the viscosity?

Honestly I was staring aimlessly at lists of brake fluids with higher wet and dry boiling points this morning before I went to work.

Thanks for your help and responses guys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, but, now I'm boiling ATE superblue AND type2?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's the same fluid, just a different color. You may want to try a different fluid.

Here's a useful link: http://www.centralcoastweb.com/nsxb/pages/m17.html

Lastly, I"m not entirely sure you need a fluid with a very high WET b.p. as that's an indication of how easily the fluid will boil AFTER it's been sitting for some time, and has absorbed moisture from the surrounding environment; since you're regularly flushing your fluid, you might want to make the DRY b.p. a prime consideration.



Modified by bb6h22a at 4:30 PM 11/12/2003

 

other than figuring out whyyour fluid boiled, then the only other possibility is you got a leak in the system.

 

Motul RBF-600 can be used in any DOT-3 or DOT-4 spec brake system. Just don't put any silicone based fluid, including Motul's DOT-5 stuff, in any non-DOT-5 system.

You can mix any fluids of the same spec. If you think you're boiling your fluid and want to really take advantage of Motul's high boiling point you'll need to flush the entire system so you get it all the way down to the calipers, where the heat is generated.

-Adam

 

Speaking of braking weirdness... I've noticed on track (while I never actually totally lose pedal pressure) that my pedal travel increases over time, but comes back a little. On the street I usually have ~ 1 inch of pedal travel, on track it's ~ 2-3 inches of pedal travel. Day after track day, my pedal is back to it's usual travel distance, without bleeding the system, or any other maintenance. Does this sound like the beginings of me boiling my fluid (I'm still using honda DOT 3), or a weakening MC (mine's got ~ 120k miles on it)?

 

I know you said you bled the brakes correctly, but you might want to check again. Hi-perf fluid can absorb moisture very quickly just by sitting in an opened bottle. Air or moisture in the fluid will lower the boiling point, to where these fluids you're using are not 'hi-temp' anymore.

It's recommended you do a complete flush before filling up with 600.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genxguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know you said you bled the brakes correctly, but you might want to check again. Hi-perf fluid can absorb moisture very quickly just by sitting in an opened bottle. Air or moisture in the fluid will lower the boiling point, to where these fluids you're using are not 'hi-temp' anymore.

It's recommended you do a complete flush before filling up with 600.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, ok thanks again.

No it was a total flush that used 2 brand new unopened cans of type 2 to get rid of all of the superblue & we properly bench bled the brand new OEM Honda Master Cylinder and installed at the same time.

It wasn't air and for gods sake I hope not a leak since the car is almost new. It is not a daily driver, doesn't see bad weather and was prepped just a few days prior to the DE and Not driven between the prep and the day of the DE.

Motul 600 is looking very good right now, as well as removing the dust shields, runing some ducting, and adding more agressive rear pads.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No it was a total flush that used 2 brand new unopened cans of type 2 to get rid of all of the superblue & we properly bench bled the brand new OEM Honda Master Cylinder and installed at the same time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe you should get someone else to help you bleed the brakes? I can flush my entire system with less than a can.

 

What you described is not really brake "fade". You can have a very solid pedal and still have "fade" - Fade is kinda like... "Okay. I'm pressing the brake pedal and I'm not slowing down at all"

Check the booster vac line and check valve.
Check the rubber lines as well if you have them - do this while someone applies pressure to the system. edit: you would be looking for any deformation or bludges in the lines (not in your pants y0!)
Make sure the booster is tight on the firewall. Also check for leaks.




Modified by Ausmith at 8:35 PM 11/12/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by usuck &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Maybe you should get someone else to help you bleed the brakes? I can flush my entire system with less than a can. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Nahh I had a more than competant assistant working the calipers while I pushed. We used the 2 cans to 1) bench bleed the MC and 2) completely remove any residual Super blue from the system. We were Extra careful and I could care less how much fluid I go through as long as I have a firm pedal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I drove the first day with Bryan *** as my instructor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There's your problem!

But seriously...check your lines.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ausmith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What you described is not really brake "fade". You can have a very solid pedal and still have "fade" - Fade is kinda like... "Okay. I'm pressing the brake pedal and I'm not slowing down at all"

Check the booster vac line and check valve. Check the rubber lines as well if you have them - do this while someone applies pressure to the system. Make sure the booster is tight on the firewall. Also check for leaks.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK so the pads themselves don't fade then, what do we call a sinking pedal and needing to double pump the brake pedal to get enough pressure to stop the car?

We checked all of the lines for leaks, and the fitments to the calipers and yes, I am still on stock hoses. The booster is tight.

As I posted above, it has all the signs of just boiling the fluid itself, I'm just still amazed that I did or even can do that. I wasn't racing, or braking deep or late braking or trail braking. And it has been an issue for quite some time.

Thanks for your input guys, I appreciate any insight and assistance.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross Rapoport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

There's your problem!

But seriously...check your lines. </TD></TR></TABLE>

So Sprinkle was my Jinx Ross?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As I posted above, it has all the signs of just boiling the fluid itself, I'm just still amazed that I did or even can do that. I wasn't racing, or braking deep or late braking or trail braking. And it has been an issue for quite some time..</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're an animal!

I guess you could say you are "Losing the pedal"...

 

Do you still have the rubber factory brake lines? You might have expanded lines. Think about switching to steel braided or teflon lines.

I had the sme problem.

 

If you're losing pedal pressure with the ATE, fully flush with Motul. Again, check the system for leaks, but I'm betting the fluid's the culprit.

FYI, I had the same problem with ATE, but not until I started pushing the car (racing).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Speaking of braking weirdness... I've noticed on track (while I never actually totally lose pedal pressure) that my pedal travel increases over time, but comes back a little. On the street I usually have ~ 1 inch of pedal travel, on track it's ~ 2-3 inches of pedal travel. Day after track day, my pedal is back to it's usual travel distance, without bleeding the system, or any other maintenance. Does this sound like the beginings of me boiling my fluid (I'm still using honda DOT 3), or a weakening MC (mine's got ~ 120k miles on it)?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your rubber lines are stretching. Mine do too.

 

Have you bled the ABS system? I know on my 94 the ABS holds quite a bit of fluid. If that's not flushed, it may mix with the new fluid in the MS. I am not familiar with the system used on the R's, I know it's different but don't know if it needs to be bled separately.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stealthx32 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Your rubber lines are stretching. Mine do too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have goodridge SS lines.