I'm looking through the recent fastracks and the only thing that I've found is that a recommendation is made to the board of directors to eliminate b/u allowance from STS. HOWEVER i do not see an effective date. Usually they would say something like: "Effective 01/01/2004...". I'm assuming the recommendation hasnt been approved yet?

Thanks for any scoop you may have on this...

 

most likely it wont be. there is a big diesussion goin on in the scca forums about it too.
-spenc

 

Please help me. I'm confused. When they talk about a "hybrid" Civic STS car, they are talking about a DX with an Si motor? Or do they put in the SOHC VTEC motor from the later generation?
Is there a weight advantage to running a DX/Si? I can certainly see the 20HP boost that the SOHC VTEC motor would give you be questioned in the rules...

 

its an si motor/tranny in dx or std shell. it is about 100 lb lighter if i remember correct.

 

Short of removing the pop-out sunroof, what is the difference between the two? A/C is an option, and can be removed, but other than that, aren't they (the tubs) close to the same?

 

There's maybe a little more sound dampening and a passenger side mirror in addition to the sunroof.

I dont think its exactly fair allowing motor swaps... but if the new CTR were to hit the States, I'd probably change my mind

 

its ef si engine (d16) in the standard (std). the 89 std is super light as it has less side impact stuff and real seatbelts, not the stupid door-mounted ones. my std weighed in at 2180 with steelies, rollbar and ac.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=661067

-spenc

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its ef si engine (d16) in the standard (std). the 89 std is super light as it has less side impact stuff and real seatbelts, not the stupid door-mounted ones. my std weighed in at 2180 with steelies, rollbar and ac.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=661067

-spenc</TD></TR></TABLE>

my 89 si weighed in at 2080 without ac and light weight exhaust. everything else stock. got the weight sheets online

 

If you're comparing the same year to the same year, the only differences between the STD and Si models are:
1) a sunroof (which I believe STS allows you to remove and patch)
2) a slightly larger engine / better tranny (which is what we want to swap in)
3) slightly heavier seats (STS rules allow different seats so that's a non-issue)
4) sway bars (std doesn't have any, but anyone racing one is going to add some)
5) rear wiper (which I believe STS allows the removal of)

The seat belts changed in all models in 1990 and 1991 (federal law requiring all passenger car seat belts to be "passive")

All other items are considered "optional" with the possible exception of the A/C in the 91 Si.

So, theoretically, A STD civic with an Si drive train and Sway bars should weigh the same as an Si of the same year with a shaved sunroof, shaved rear wiper, and STD seats. I don't see any issues with the EF civics, however, I'm sure there are other cars out there that could have advantages.

Since I only race at the local level, I'm just going to continue my plan of racing in STS next year regardless of weather the rule change happens or not. I don't feel I'm at any unfair advantage, especially since the driver (me) weighs 280 lbs!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thumpu77 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're comparing the same year to the same year, the only differences between the STD and Si models are:
1) a sunroof (which I believe STS allows you to remove and patch)
2) a slightly larger engine / better tranny (which is what we want to swap in)
3) slightly heavier seats (STS rules allow different seats so that's a non-issue)
4) sway bars (std doesn't have any, but anyone racing one is going to add some)
5) rear wiper (which I believe STS allows the removal of)

The seat belts changed in all models in 1990 and 1991 (federal law requiring all passenger car seat belts to be "passive")

All other items are considered "optional" with the possible exception of the A/C in the 91 Si.

So, theoretically, A STD civic with an Si drive train and Sway bars should weigh the same as an Si of the same year with a shaved sunroof, shaved rear wiper, and STD seats. I don't see any issues with the EF civics, however, I'm sure there are other cars out there that could have advantages.

Since I only race at the local level, I'm just going to continue my plan of racing in STS next year regardless of weather the rule change happens or not. I don't feel I'm at any unfair advantage, especially since the driver (me) weighs 280 lbs!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

1) No, you cannot remove a sunroof from the Si since the Si was never available without one.

2) True

3) True, but you can't touch the back seats, which are lighter by a small margin

4) True

5) Only if you coudl get the Si without a rear wiper, which I don't believe you can. However, shaving the rear wiper arm and leaving the motor may be a comfort and convienience mod if your competitors are cool about it since the wiper arm weighs maybe 0.5 lbs.

In addition, the STD had less of a console and less sound deadening. But the sunroof is the key weight savings issue, which you cannot remove. A/C can be removed in any STS car.

 

Ok... But the original question was is the b/u allowance is OFFICIALLY eliminated for 2004? I did not see (or maybe missed) anything in the latest fastracks confirming this. All I see is people talking about as if it was a fait-accompli but nothing from SCCA???

Personally, i think it should be kept if only to keep some kinda logical progression between Stock-&gt;ST-&gt;SP. Since everyone focus is on the Civics... what the hell is wrong with the fact that one can buy a $500 CX-DX and throw in a used $250 Si drivetrain and a few more bucks on a half-decent suspension and trophy in Kansas?... Such a situation can only be good for the sport, IMO...

But by the looks of it, SCCA is making one rule change after another that will kill any logical progression between classes. Just as has already been done with SP and P...

 

there hasnt been anything officially announced. I'm still undecided on if i think the removal was a good or bad thing.

I wish they would announce the rules already. I'm still waiting for the seat rule so I can decide what kind of seat I want to buy.

 

you could get std w/o radio as well i dont think u could get si w/o radio. but i may be wrong

 

The Si did not arrive on US shores with a radio in the dash. It was optional.

As well, there is a place for turning Dx's into Si's, and that's Street Prepared, Street Modified and Prepared. How many classes really needs to have hybrids running around in them? ST was not supposed to be about motor and chassis swaps--the car is what it is and it should remain that way.

 

AFAIK, originally STS was supposed to attract the "street tuner" crowd and the typical mods that those cars have. I dunno how it is elsewhere, but the "typical" engine mod in a Civic around here is a B16 or an LS/VTEC swap. Talk about frankenstein... And for those on the cheap with CX/DXs, the cheapest way to get some more performance is to swap their 300K mile DX motor for an Si, for CHEAP.

Again, SCCA totally missed the big picture here. Now someone who starts in STS and later decides to make the move into SP is forced to swap chassis in order to be competitive vs. someone who's already got an SP car to the limit of the rule. And contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of other STS cars that can use the b/u allowance. VWs, BMWs, Neons, DelSols for example...

Anyway, useless arguments at this point i would imagine. But hopefully somebody on the BOD will take a step back and see the forest instead of just the trees...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AFAIK, originally STS was supposed to attract the "street tuner" crowd and the typical mods that those cars have. I dunno how it is elsewhere, but the "typical" engine mod in a Civic around here is a B16 or an LS/VTEC swap. Talk about frankenstein... And for those on the cheap with CX/DXs, the cheapest way to get some more performance is to swap their 300K mile DX motor for an Si, for CHEAP.

Again, SCCA totally missed the big picture here. Now someone who starts in STS and later decides to make the move into SP is forced to swap chassis in order to be competitive vs. someone who's already got an SP car to the limit of the rule. And contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of other STS cars that can use the b/u allowance. VWs, BMWs, Neons, DelSols for example...

Anyway, useless arguments at this point i would imagine. But hopefully somebody on the BOD will take a step back and see the forest instead of just the trees...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

The way I interpret the SCCA's rationale is:

Street Touring ...
Keep the original motor and do the standard I/H/E stuff on it. Throw in a fuel management system (either electronic or mechanical) along with the suspension setup of your choice. Viola!

Street Prepared...
With few exceptions to suspensions, an STS/STX car could go to a respective Street Prepared class quite easily. For the most part, just add a few sets of race tires and a LSD, as engine internals and interiors must remain intact. Develop the fuel system a little more if you're really bored. Yes, UD/BD applies here, but that's only if you plan on going all the way, most casual/occasional autocrossers (which I interpret as running less than 8 events a year) have no intention of ever trying to become the next John Thomas and taking a national crown (or 11 to be exact ).

Street Modified...
If using the motor that came with the car just isn't doing it for you, there's Street Modified... Let's face it, many people aren't going to swap in a B-series and leave it stock. Just venture into the Rice Forum (a.k.a. EG+ Civic/delSol) to see that half those kids already have the basis for SM as designed by the SCCA: motors with all the trimmings, possibly forced induction of some sort, gutted interiors from the rear seats back, and worked suspensions (good or otherwise).

So all in all, I think the marketing geniuses are doing quite well.

Besides, how much of the Fast & Furious crowd the SCCA is trying to entice do you see coming to your events?

Where we autocross (NJ-Raceway Park, a drag strip) is chock-full-o-potential autocrossers. Do our numbers grow yearly?
Not by much.

Hell, we've put on *specific* events designed aroud those Import Shootout drag races so as to appeal to a broader audience... Even when we host Corvette Day, Viper Day, and the 1.8T Challenge for "European Car Magazine" we got very little to zero turnaround at our regular events.

In many cases though it's better not having a billion people at an event. More runs for us.

Oh, back to the original reason for this thread in the first place: I have heard the UD/BD clause will be shot down in STS/STX soon as well.

Anthony "Mario" Crea



Modified by honda93 at 11:04 AM 11/7/2003