Fuilly built h22 only 197whp??
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Honda-Tech Member
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From: Philadelphia, Pa, usa
Fuilly built h22 only 197whp??
ok well the short story is i wasted alot of money on this engine and i need to get some more ideas. we actually tuned 18 hp out of it one the dyno for 5 hours.
the mod list is as follows:
H22 sleeved, bored 89 mm, o ringed
12:1 Endyne coated pistons
Eagle rods
crank slight knife edge
Prodrive oil pump
crank pulley lightened
balancing shafts removed
lightened flywheel
TWM Induction individual t-bodies
440 cc inj.
big Web cams
Fidanza cam gears
1mm oversized valves
p&p head, chambers done
full Ferea valvetrain
AEM PMS w/ wideband
its late and i might be forgetting somethings. now for the embarassing things, when i bought the engine the only company that made a 4-1 header was kamakazi. i didnt know that the runners were so ******* short until i pulled it out of the box. so that is power robbing there. the only thing that i can see robbing power besides that it the tanabe racing medalion i have on the car. where the cat should be there is a neck down of about 2" or so anD it looks like 2 1/4" ALL THE WAY BACK. so i ordered a headertech header 4-1 3" collector, and once that is on i am putting on my OWN 3" exhaust.( which i still need to get a muffler so if you know of a quiet 3" let me know please)
i talked to 3 shops and had a damn good tuner with me tuning the car. the tune is dead on,
all said minimum 220. could be up to 240 tops. my torque was only 141.
ANY IDEAS WOULD BE HELPFUL AND FUN TO READ.
JOSH
the mod list is as follows:
H22 sleeved, bored 89 mm, o ringed
12:1 Endyne coated pistons
Eagle rods
crank slight knife edge
Prodrive oil pump
crank pulley lightened
balancing shafts removed
lightened flywheel
TWM Induction individual t-bodies
440 cc inj.
big Web cams
Fidanza cam gears
1mm oversized valves
p&p head, chambers done
full Ferea valvetrain
AEM PMS w/ wideband
its late and i might be forgetting somethings. now for the embarassing things, when i bought the engine the only company that made a 4-1 header was kamakazi. i didnt know that the runners were so ******* short until i pulled it out of the box. so that is power robbing there. the only thing that i can see robbing power besides that it the tanabe racing medalion i have on the car. where the cat should be there is a neck down of about 2" or so anD it looks like 2 1/4" ALL THE WAY BACK. so i ordered a headertech header 4-1 3" collector, and once that is on i am putting on my OWN 3" exhaust.( which i still need to get a muffler so if you know of a quiet 3" let me know please)
i talked to 3 shops and had a damn good tuner with me tuning the car. the tune is dead on,
all said minimum 220. could be up to 240 tops. my torque was only 141.ANY IDEAS WOULD BE HELPFUL AND FUN TO READ.
JOSH
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From: Import Builders, US
Re: Fuilly built h22 only 197whp?? (meanEG)
.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by meanEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok well the short story is i wasted alot of money on this engine and i need to get some more ideas. we actually tuned 18 hp out of it one the dyno for 5 hours.
the mod list is as follows:
H22 sleeved, bored 89 mm, o ringed
12:1 Endyne coated pistons
Eagle rods
crank slight knife edge
Prodrive oil pump
crank pulley lightened
balancing shafts removed
lightened flywheel
TWM Induction individual t-bodies
440 cc inj.
big Web cams
Fidanza cam gears
1mm oversized valves
p&p head, chambers done
full Ferea valvetrain
AEM PMS w/ wideband
its late and i might be forgetting somethings. now for the embarassing things, when i bought the engine the only company that made a 4-1 header was kamakazi. i didnt know that the runners were so ******* short until i pulled it out of the box. so that is power robbing there. the only thing that i can see robbing power besides that it the tanabe racing medalion i have on the car. where the cat should be there is a neck down of about 2" or so anD it looks like 2 1/4" ALL THE WAY BACK. so i ordered a headertech header 4-1 3" collector, and once that is on i am putting on my OWN 3" exhaust.( which i still need to get a muffler so if you know of a quiet 3" let me know please)
i talked to 3 shops and had a damn good tuner with me tuning the car. the tune is dead on, all said minimum 220. could be up to 240 tops. my torque was only 141.
ANY IDEAS WOULD BE HELPFUL AND FUN TO READ.
JOSH</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ive never seen a NA motor running ENDYN pistons make as much power as it should... Never seen a B series motor with them make over 240 on pump gas or even race gas for that matter, never seen an H motor over 220 pump or race either... Other pistons have gotten 260+ for B series on pump gas and 230+ on the H motors... Im not trying to start the whole ENDYN IB debate again Im just pointing out my observations... Dyno sheets will tell you that as well... They are heavier than say a JE, CP or IB piston which for a NA aplication doesnt help much.
A header such as AN-r, SMSP will help you out alot as well... kamikaze is an OK header for a production piece but cant compare to a race engineered product as an SMSP or AN-r, etc etc...
What are the specs @ 1mm on the cams you are running?
Where are you making peak power?
Hears something for you to look at...
http://www.importreview.com/dy...2.jpg
This is with a DC header, Stock Euro ATR IM and Stock TB and full exhaust... Its in a 5th Gen Lude still with AC and PS fully functional... a better header, better IM and TB, no AC or PS and your well over 230 maybe as high as 240's...
Modified by RS_H22 at 3:55 PM 10/18/2003
the mod list is as follows:
H22 sleeved, bored 89 mm, o ringed
12:1 Endyne coated pistons
Eagle rods
crank slight knife edge
Prodrive oil pump
crank pulley lightened
balancing shafts removed
lightened flywheel
TWM Induction individual t-bodies
440 cc inj.
big Web cams
Fidanza cam gears
1mm oversized valves
p&p head, chambers done
full Ferea valvetrain
AEM PMS w/ wideband
its late and i might be forgetting somethings. now for the embarassing things, when i bought the engine the only company that made a 4-1 header was kamakazi. i didnt know that the runners were so ******* short until i pulled it out of the box. so that is power robbing there. the only thing that i can see robbing power besides that it the tanabe racing medalion i have on the car. where the cat should be there is a neck down of about 2" or so anD it looks like 2 1/4" ALL THE WAY BACK. so i ordered a headertech header 4-1 3" collector, and once that is on i am putting on my OWN 3" exhaust.( which i still need to get a muffler so if you know of a quiet 3" let me know please)
i talked to 3 shops and had a damn good tuner with me tuning the car. the tune is dead on,
all said minimum 220. could be up to 240 tops. my torque was only 141.ANY IDEAS WOULD BE HELPFUL AND FUN TO READ.
JOSH</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ive never seen a NA motor running ENDYN pistons make as much power as it should... Never seen a B series motor with them make over 240 on pump gas or even race gas for that matter, never seen an H motor over 220 pump or race either... Other pistons have gotten 260+ for B series on pump gas and 230+ on the H motors... Im not trying to start the whole ENDYN IB debate again Im just pointing out my observations... Dyno sheets will tell you that as well... They are heavier than say a JE, CP or IB piston which for a NA aplication doesnt help much.
A header such as AN-r, SMSP will help you out alot as well... kamikaze is an OK header for a production piece but cant compare to a race engineered product as an SMSP or AN-r, etc etc...
What are the specs @ 1mm on the cams you are running?
Where are you making peak power?
Hears something for you to look at...
http://www.importreview.com/dy...2.jpg
This is with a DC header, Stock Euro ATR IM and Stock TB and full exhaust... Its in a 5th Gen Lude still with AC and PS fully functional... a better header, better IM and TB, no AC or PS and your well over 230 maybe as high as 240's...
Modified by RS_H22 at 3:55 PM 10/18/2003
Member
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Posts: 8,113
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From: East Village, NYC
Re: Fuilly built h22 only 197whp?? (meanEG)
I think I have the same pistons as you. Anyways from what I know the kami header for NA is TERRIBLE. There is a story that someone (I can't remember who) put it on and LOST 10hp over the stock header! Avoid that header at all costs.
How are you reading the ITBs? Maybe you aren't getting the right MAP signals.
What kind of cat are you running? Your torque should be a lot higher. Do you have the cam specs? post the dyno so we can see the graph?
How are you reading the ITBs? Maybe you aren't getting the right MAP signals.
What kind of cat are you running? Your torque should be a lot higher. Do you have the cam specs? post the dyno so we can see the graph?
Thread Starter
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From: Philadelphia, Pa, usa
Re: Fuilly built h22 only 197whp?? (satan_srv)
I think I have the same pistons as you. Anyways from what I know the kami header for NA is TERRIBLE. There is a story that someone (I can't remember who) put it on and LOST 10hp over the stock header! Avoid that header at all costs.
How are you reading the ITBs? Maybe you aren't getting the right MAP signals.
What kind of cat are you running? Your torque should be a lot higher. Do you have the cam specs? post the dyno so we can see the graph?
no cat, tps based fuel map, i think cams at .050 260 and 310 lift on the lobe, like i said waiting on the header. should be ready next week, well the sheet is out in the car, but i can tell you you cant even see wherethe hp or tq picks up in vtec. engages at 5200. flat spot, i mean straight across. in hp from 5800 to 6400 i think
How are you reading the ITBs? Maybe you aren't getting the right MAP signals.
What kind of cat are you running? Your torque should be a lot higher. Do you have the cam specs? post the dyno so we can see the graph?
no cat, tps based fuel map, i think cams at .050 260 and 310 lift on the lobe, like i said waiting on the header. should be ready next week, well the sheet is out in the car, but i can tell you you cant even see wherethe hp or tq picks up in vtec. engages at 5200. flat spot, i mean straight across. in hp from 5800 to 6400 i think
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,467
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From: ca, usa
i'm thinking your problem maybe your cams, what stage are your cams? your compression may not be enough for the stage 3+, trying using some stage 2 or even 1's to see what the outcome is, if the cams are too big, then this is your problem, using stage 3 or even some stage 2, i recommend your compression to be 12:5 and up to run to full potential of the cams
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From: Spokane, WA, USA
Re: (jacklee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jacklee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm thinking your problem maybe your cams, what stage are your cams? your compression may not be enough for the stage 3+, trying using some stage 2 or even 1's to see what the outcome is, if the cams are too big, then this is your problem, using stage 3 or even some stage 2, i recommend your compression to be 12:5 and up to run to full potential of the cams</TD></TR></TABLE>
read to post, his compression is 12:1. Dump the Kaz header and itb's to get a base line, something is up here. Who did the head work and what exactly was done?
read to post, his compression is 12:1. Dump the Kaz header and itb's to get a base line, something is up here. Who did the head work and what exactly was done?
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Posts: 1,475
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From: Caracas, Venezuela
Re: (civicsitek)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicsitek »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
read to post, his compression is 12:1. Dump the Kaz header and itb's to get a base line, something is up here. Who did the head work and what exactly was done?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm with him, you have to start checking airflow path, there is something wrong, now, what i would do first is to build the exhaust, header, high flow cat (IF) and muffler, i would recommend 2.75 (and KTELLER8
) is a good choice but if you are decided about going 3" that's your choice. Then run the car, if there is a huge noticeable difference get it to the dyno, if not, is time to check fuel maps, head airflow, maybe swap the stock IM and run it that way just to discard the head....
What cams are those BTW?
Good luck man.
read to post, his compression is 12:1. Dump the Kaz header and itb's to get a base line, something is up here. Who did the head work and what exactly was done?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm with him, you have to start checking airflow path, there is something wrong, now, what i would do first is to build the exhaust, header, high flow cat (IF) and muffler, i would recommend 2.75 (and KTELLER8
) is a good choice but if you are decided about going 3" that's your choice. Then run the car, if there is a huge noticeable difference get it to the dyno, if not, is time to check fuel maps, head airflow, maybe swap the stock IM and run it that way just to discard the head....What cams are those BTW?
Good luck man.
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Thread Starter
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From: Philadelphia, Pa, usa
web did the cams, i believe dart did the head. ill keep the cam suggestions and the im suggestions in perspective. kinda hard to do due to the fact i cut all the fuel lines, and made my own.
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From: kitchener, ontario, Canada
Re: (meanEG)
i think that it could be the oversize valves w/ the big cams...when you use oversize valves you don't need lots of lift. I'm using oversize valves with stock cams, stock bottom end, and I'm making 203.8whp and 158tp. If you want to use those big cams, go back to stock size valves. keep us posted on how things are going...
later
later
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From: East Village, NYC
Re: (meanEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by meanEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no compression, leakdown 2%</TD></TR></TABLE>
no compression?
no compression?
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Re: (kwik93si)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kwik93si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to use those big cams, go back to stock size valves.</TD></TR></TABLE>It's pretty hard to go back to smaller valves w/o sinking the **** out of the seats.
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From: EJ2 type DX number 511,096
Re: Fuilly built h22 only 197whp?? (RS_H22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS_H22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ive never seen a NA motor running ENDYN pistons make as much power as it should...</TD></TR></TABLE>
ok right there i know you are assicated with IB.
the whole IB Vs. ENDYN =
ok right there i know you are assicated with IB.
the whole IB Vs. ENDYN =
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From: Lake Tahoe, Nv
Re: Fuilly built h22 only 197whp?? (Typesi2nv)
I think that the cams are the problem... those aren't big cams by any means...
I'm running a bigger cam than that on my SOHC non-VTEC F22A1...and I don't have anything near the cr you're running...
just my thoughts...
Have you tried putting the stock cams back in?
I'm running a bigger cam than that on my SOHC non-VTEC F22A1...and I don't have anything near the cr you're running...
just my thoughts...
Have you tried putting the stock cams back in?
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From: Winchester, Va
Re: Fuilly built h22 only 197whp?? (ZigenBallz)
Hmmm we squeezed 208whp and 168fttq out of a stock H22 with Skunk S2 cams.(rings didnt take this very long)..I think you should look at the compression test to see if static compression is high enough. Have the cams been degreed in properly? The compression test will help show this.
Howard
Howard
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well i am going toi get my headertech header this week i hope. then i am going to do exhaust. after that i will probably change cams. Zigenballz, these cam specs were at the lobe not at the valve a lot different numbers. and they are rather big. i will do a compression test as well. if anyone has stock valves and cams in the area please let me know i would appreciate it. i had to use my cams as cores.
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From: Spokane, WA, USA
Re: (GZERO)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GZERO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wouldn't use stock valves on that head anymore...... </TD></TR></TABLE>
he could have new seats installed
he could have new seats installed
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Re: (civicsitek)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicsitek »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
he could have new seats installed</TD></TR></TABLE>It's not worth the cost of replacing the seats.I charge $15 labor+seat cost to replace.$240+the cost of the seats,new stock valves,and a new valve job.
he could have new seats installed</TD></TR></TABLE>It's not worth the cost of replacing the seats.I charge $15 labor+seat cost to replace.$240+the cost of the seats,new stock valves,and a new valve job.
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From: Caracas, Venezuela
Re: (civicsitek)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicsitek »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
he could have new seats installed</TD></TR></TABLE>
Off course he can, but i just don't think he should do it, the head was port&polished (off course, we don't know to what extend) but still, i would borrow someones head or sell that one as a build head and buy a bone stock one and build it without oversized valves.
he could have new seats installed</TD></TR></TABLE>
Off course he can, but i just don't think he should do it, the head was port&polished (off course, we don't know to what extend) but still, i would borrow someones head or sell that one as a build head and buy a bone stock one and build it without oversized valves.