I just finished reading a recent issue of Automobile magazine where they did a head to head test of the Ford GT, Lambo Gallardo, and Ferrari 360 Modena. Now, I've read many reviews with semi auto trannies, sport shifts, whatever they may be called. Heck I remember the articles years ago when the idea of adding these types of shifters to transmissions was a brand new thing for the mass market and the purists of course screamed blasphemy.

What if?

What if these types of transmission WERE more affordable? Would they be something only for a daily driver or cruiser as they have been added to types like Audi?

Would you add something like these to your race car (if you could of course, rules allowed.) How much would they change things? Would you add it to your HPDE car and or Autocrosser or weekend lapper?

I've always been intrigued and continue to be, especially when you see the season end F1 race a few days ago and find yourself thumbing through said magazine a few days later then drooling over the fancy red prancing stallion 360. They mention testing both the F1 paddle type and the gated manual and kind of joke about coordinating feet for 3-2 downshifts on a more demanding course.

But, I'm so proud of learning to heel-toe, heck I'm doing it pretty well. I'd be extremely proud if I could heel-toe a Ferrari. I love the sound of the perfect revmatch and just feeling the turn through, it feels so good, It's Pure Satisfaction. Heck it's one of the main reasons I love HPDE so much, the damned shifting.

So why? Why do they offer it? Is it for easier driving? Or is the car going to be going so blindlingly fast that you'll physically not be able to keep up with it and just be fumbling and hanging on for deal life? Is it just a gimmick? Is it more relaxing?

Funny enough after more intrigue, and pondering, I'd still be stuck if I had to make a decision. Money and cars aside it would just not be easy.

If it was an option, H'mmm

Not really my point here but, it seems to me that cars these days that are designed and developed with more safety in mind and of course touted as more powerful, as well as race bred technology, lull the average public into a false sense of security. As John Q.P. goes bounding down the highway and byway at 90 plus MPH in his obligatory alpha numeric XYZ type-R, neglecting not only the speed limit, or the road and traffic conditions, but could care less about making a turn signal or even any respectful thing that would give the just as dangerous soccer mom in her Urban Tank half a chance as she swerves out of control and of course topples the tank crushes me in my crap assed 92 Sentra and creates a 20 mile traffic backup.

Do they add these F1 paddles as gimmicks or are they just trying to compensate for poor average driver ability and education?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

If it was an option, H'mmm.

I thought about it some more.

It would be easier for certain, but easier doesn't always mean better.

Nope, I wouldn't choose it unless of course it was a part of the racing series or class that made it an allowed advantage.

I'm too happy being more a part of the car, than less connected and an average sheep.


A.


PS it's here because most of you know what the f*ck you are talking about or at least could B.S. your way through a conversation about it better than any other forum on this site.


PPS anyone with any insight from a Ferrari owner with this type of option?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or at least could B.S. your way through a conversation about it better than any other forum on this site.</TD></TR></TABLE>

*looks around*

*whistles*

 

My only experience is some playing around with an new M3 with the 6 speed paddle shifter. They have a thumbwheel that lets you adjust the speed of the shifting process. Although I was disappointed at first because it had been adjusted to mid -range, I took the shift speed adjuster to near max and it really was neat. I did not get to drive it on a track, this was a loaner car that we used to develop the M3 KONI shocks with but on our 20 mile loops on a variety of roads. When driving a borrowed car on tight public roads, I couldn't really push it really hard but was able to get the car to respond quite nicely. I enjoyed it quite a bit and regardless of whatever driving techniques I would have used, the car was shifting itself faster and getting back in the power faster than I would have been able to for sure.

I generally consider myself a fair amount of purist but if the technology lets the car do it faster with same or better reliability and still leave me with the same control (especially in off throttle decel where automatics can be sloppy), then I am all for it.

I think the fact that all F1 and World Rally cars have this and CART even has "shift without lift" then it is obvious that the right system is superior in racing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the fact that all F1 and World Rally cars have this and CART even has "shift without lift" then it is obvious that the right system is superior in racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dammit, that's what I was going to say.

If something mechanical can do it's job faster, and perfect, everytime, it's the superior choice.

I was perfect in every respect, then I missed a shift once...

 

I was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to drive a 355 F1. it was a blast. A little strange at first. After a while it felt really comfortable on the street. Later we went to a gymkana track. It didn't feel so comfortable there. I have a feeling in time even there it would feel great. I used to work on Mitsubishi's. We used to call the 3000gt vr-4 a girls car. Not because it looks pretty but because anybody could drive this car fast and for the most part safe. Unlike the old starions where the back end could come out in a heart beat. I am not sure if this wouldn't be the same. Could it be more like vtec, convenient in traffic but kicks *** out of traffic? I dunno.


Modified by JAMES "A" at 11:38 PM 10/13/2003

 

Nope I wont choose any transmission but a simple manual. Maybe its just the purist in me but I really like shifting myself. Sure the other setups can shift faster then me and are perfect everytime but I think that takes some of the fun out of it. I want to be as perfect as I can be and I really dont care for a gearbox that takes away one part of driving.
Anyway this is all just my opinion and I really give credit to Porsche for putting a traditional manual in the Carrera GT. At the same time if I had the money for a Ferrari I cant see how you could own one that didnt have the beautiful polished aluminum gated shifter in it.

 

If all you did was read magazine tests, you'd never know that these cars are offered with traditional 'boxes. Every single test of any new Ferrari or Lamborghini is done on a car with the paddle-shifting option.

These companies market these systems in the United States more than anywhere else, because they know effort-averse Americans will just set the paddle in "automatic" mode and putt around town.

The systems also have guards against ham-fisted mis-shifts by the investment-banking meatheads that might mangle an engine with a conventional tranny.

Having said that, they shift faster than any human driver can, and allow you to keep your hands on the wheel at all times. They are simpler, and faster.

 

I'll stick with simplicity,, it dosen't break as often

 

I'm surprised no one brought up sequential tranny's that have a manual clutch, but can be shifted faster without it.... I was under the impression that they were popular in many forms of racing, but of course are not offered in street cars. Any experiences or opinions?

 

Semi-auto, "sport shifts" and basically cars with torque converters? Not my thing right now.

A true sequential, electronic/hydrolic controlled clutch transmission? Sure. And I wouldn't mind if it had an "auto" option so that I could putt around town.

Purist or not, I'd welcome it. But that's just me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aleister Crowley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If all you did was read magazine tests, you'd never know that these cars are offered with traditional 'boxes. Every single test of any new Ferrari or Lamborghini is done on a car with the paddle-shifting option.

These companies market these systems in the United States more than anywhere else, because they know effort-averse Americans will just set the paddle in "automatic" mode and putt around town.

The systems also have guards against ham-fisted mis-shifts by the investment-banking meatheads that might mangle an engine with a conventional tranny.

Having said that, they shift faster than any human driver can, and allow you to keep your hands on the wheel at all times. They are simpler, and faster.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not entirely true, at all. Actually the ROW --rest of the world-- markets get all the techie goodies, not the US.
I don't like the system on the 360, and I'd much rather have the classic gated shifter; that said, on a purely track car, then I'd like to have the F1 system, but for an everyday car it's a little clunky, and the clutch, and associated solenoids/accuators, do wear quicker on F1 trannys -- it's most the reverse gear accuator that fails, locks out the tranny and then it's a flat bed home. You can't really mis-shift w/ the F1 system, but you can still bounce of the limiter-- as far as the "auto" setting is concerned, it's way to clunky to be convinent in and around town.
Seems like there's a lot of talk of "phasing" out a classic manual box, but I'm not sure that'll really happen as there's not enough money to give every car a true F1 clutch less box, and I'm sure there's still enough "purist" automotive journalists to mount an angry rebellion against that pansy "e-shift" bullshit shitbox slush-o-matic (the eshifts have got the voracity in shifting, as to make tomato soup come off like a viscous solid).
In the end there certainly is a line in the sand, and people will ultimatly come to draw b/w modern parlance, or esteemed sentiment.
As of this writing ... I'm still on the fence.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems like there's a lot of talk of "phasing" out a classic manual box, but I'm not sure that'll really happen as there's not enough money to give every car a true F1 clutch less box,</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree. Look at the Toyota MR2 Spyder with SMG, it is the first car affordable to the "masses." Yeah, it shifts slow and in general isn't a whole lot of fun, but it works, and it's pretty cheap.

If Toyota had put the same gearbox (as the only option) in the celica GTS they would have saved a lot of trouble with blown engines. Lots of redline 3rd to 2nd shifts in the GTS... I've never driven an E46 M3, but if I had to guess, I think I would go with the SMG option rather than a normal gearbox. I actually think automatics have their place, and to get the best of both worlds...

I was even thinking about running an automatic in my track car (the '73 Celica), of course that's because the Lexus V8 only comes with an auto... (and the car would still be stupid fast). Too bad I can't even afford a 4 cylinder with a manual right now...

Scott

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Semi-auto, "sport shifts" and basically cars with torque converters? Not my thing right now.

A true sequential, electronic/hydrolic controlled clutch transmission? Sure. And I wouldn't mind if it had an "auto" option so that I could putt around town.

Purist or not, I'd welcome it. But that's just me. </TD></TR></TABLE>

d00d...not what they are referring to. they are talking about cars like the E46 M3, which has a true sequential. it's an automatice without the torque converter

if the option were available on my integra? no, because the steering is such that i have to move my hands. On an S2000? I'd be all over it. Allows me to keep both hands on the wheel at all times. more control. i'm all in favor of things that allow the driver to focus more on driving, and not have to worry about peripheral tasks

 

If the paddle shifter system

1) Could Shift as fast or faster than me
2) Did not use any additional HP
3) Was as strong as a manual trans
4) Was as reliable as a manual trans
5) Cost the same as a manual trans

Then

I would buy one for racing/HPDE/autocross

But i would still have a traditional trans for the street.

 

I was one of the purists screaming "blasphemy!" when they came out with F1 style shifters. That was until I drove a shifter kart on track. That's probably the closest thing I'll ever feel to driving an F1 car in my life. I fell in love with the sequential shifter the first time I went bam-bam-bam and did a 5th-2nd downshift in no time. I felt like Michael freaking Schumacher when I came down the front straight and went wheyyy-wheyyy-wheyyy through the gears. It sounded so wonderful too . Being able to left foot brake while not having to worry about using the same foot for the clutch takes all of the confusion out of it for me and driving faster and smoother is easier.

I've never driven a car with a sequential box on the street (or any car with a sequential box for that matter) so I can't really comment on that, but I think I'd enjoy the traditional manual better.

Plus, ever heard an F50 GT do several sequential downshifts?? I only saw it in a video, but still... :drool:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Not entirely true, at all. Actually the ROW --rest of the world-- markets get all the techie goodies, not the US. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not talking about "techie goodies," I'm talking about paddle-shifters. I can't remember the last time I have seen a road test of a U.S.-market Ferrari with a conventional 'box.

Don't use yourself as an example, because that's not the point I was making at all. Of course the enthusiast is going to have their own take on it - I for one would prefer a traditional manual.

I'm talking about the guy who never goes to a track day, just buys the car to look cool, and thinks the paddle shifter is some neat gimmick to show off to his friends. Ferrari et al. know that these are the people, by and large, that buy their cars, and they adjust their production and marketing accordingly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aleister Crowley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm talking about the guy who never goes to a track day, just buys the car to look cool, and thinks the paddle shifter is some neat gimmick to show off to his friends. Ferrari et al. know that these are the people, by and large, that buy their cars, and they adjust their production and marketing accordingly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

C'mon, don't you know how important every tenth of a second saved in getting to work on time is???

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

d00d...not what they are referring to. they are talking about cars like the E46 M3, which has a true sequential. it's an automatice without the torque converter </TD></TR></TABLE>

But Anton mentioned semi "auto" trannies and sportshift which are generally associated with torque convertered slushboxes. Therefore I added that clarification to my post.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aleister Crowley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm talking about the guy who never goes to a track day, just buys the car to look cool, and thinks the paddle shifter is some neat gimmick to show off to his friends. Ferrari et al. know that these are the people, by and large, that buy their cars, and they adjust their production and marketing accordingly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Precisely part of my point, (if I had a point at all.)

In the same issue of Automobile November 03 issue, they do a quick test of the Porshe 911 Turbo Cabriolet wherein they say <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"Like the coupe, the Cabriolet has an optional Tiptronic S manu-matic transmission that decreases acceleration slightly. If you're cross shopping the Mercedes-Benz SL55 or SL600, however you'll likely opt for the slushbox."</TD></TR></TABLE>

Granted they are different types of semi auto transmissions but, the more I see them mentioned the more I see it purely from a marketing standpoint. The people that buy these cars aren't buying them more for their performance and purity but, for the Name and the social status that they portray.


Anyone driven the Porsche Manu-matic?

Comments?

 

In higher levels of racing (read: pricier), the clutch system is pretty much an on-off switch. There's no feathering and ****. Stomp the pedal, and let go as soon as you're in gear. Sequential clutch-less manuals are perfect. For the lower racing levels (H-C), the clutch is an integral part of the race requiring deft control.

My answer: I want the traditional 5/6 speed on every car I drive except for my GT1 Porshe LM race-car...


Modified by GSpeedR at 2:09 PM 10/14/2003

 

I want a Volkswagen with their upcoming DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox).

It's a double clutch system.



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So how does this revolutionary transmission concept work? The basis for the new development is a 6-speed manual gearbox with high variability in the selection of the transmission ratio. Thanks to the use of an integrated twin multi-plate clutch with ingenious control system, two gears can be engaged at the same time. During dynamic operation of the car, one gear is engaged. When the next gearshift point is approached, the appropriate gear is preselected but its clutch kept disengaged. The gearshift process opens the clutch of the activated gear and closes the other clutch at the same time. The gear change takes place under load, with the result that a permanent flow of power is maintained.

The technology of this twin-clutch transmission, the only one of its kind in the world, has its roots in motor racing. As far back as 1985, Walter Röhrl successfully tested it in his Audi Sport quattro S1.

Today, the new design satisfies the exacting requirements of convenient gear-shifting and maximum operating life for everyday use in series production vehicles. This transmission has been developed at group level and is built at the Kassel transmissions plant. This compact transmission is capable of handling torque of up to 350 Newton-meters (258 lb-ft. of torque).

The control logic integrated into the transmission casing maintains optimum gearshift strategies that perform lightning-fast gearshifts that are nevertheless smooth and almost jolt-free. The driver can directly influence the gear selected and the gearshift timing at will, by means of the gear lever in the manual gate or the standard-fit shift paddles on the steering wheel.

In the automatic mode, the driver can shift from position D to the ultra-sporty S program, in which upshifts are retarded, downshifts advanced and the shifting process accelerated. A remote one-touch function accessed via the shift paddles on the steering wheel in addition temporarily calls up the manual mode even in automatic modes D and S.

High overall efficiency is thus combined with superlative road performance and ease of control to produce an exceptional drive concept. The user interface is reminiscent of the familiar gearbox gate of the Audi tiptronic or multitronic.

As on conventional manual gearboxes, the transmission ratios are present on input and auxiliary shafts in the form of pairs of toothed wheels. In contrast to manual gearboxes, the input shaft is divided into two sections. It comprises an outer hollow shaft, and an inner shaft. The 1st, 3rd, 5th gears and reverse are located on the inner shaft. The hollow shaft handles the even-numbered gears.

Each of these shafts is selected by means of a separate multi-plate clutch running in oil. The two electronically controlled, hydraulically actuated clutches are packed inside each other for maximum space economy.

As well as their high efficiency and ability to transmit high torques, clutches of this type permit a wide range of starting characteristics. In other words, the multi-plate clutch can be controlled in such a way that every conceivable form of pulling away is possible, from an ultra-gentle edging along on a slippery surface to sports-style acceleration at full throttle.

The gearshifts it produces feel spontaneous and decisive, as if executed at the push of a button. The electronic-control throttle blip feature of the manual and S modes reinforces the impression of ultra-dynamic gearshifts.

A shift-by-wire control concept has been implemented. The mechatronic concept combines a control unit with an electro-hydraulic control unit. The resulting device is housed in the upper section of the transmission casing. The signals from ten individual sensors are processed centrally there, and the actuation values calculated using the relevant information on the momentary driving situation from the drive CAN bus. The application pressure of the two clutches is regulated by special solenoid-operated valves depending on the situation, and the gear positioners operated.

The electronics also calculate which additional gear is to be preselected by the corresponding positioning cylinder and selector forks, and manages all actuating elements and the oil cooling circuit via six pressure regulation valves and five on/off valves.

All in all, the entirely new concept results in a decidedly agile performance, with the added benefit of the typically low fuel consumption of an advanced 6-speed manual gearbox.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Apparently the sport mode won't let you drop below 4000 RPM and it's also got a launch mode, and it creeps forward when you let off the brake like and auto...which can be good or bad.

But, it sounds like a really really nice compromise between stop and go traffic driveability when sticks are annoying as fsck and speed, when sticks are fun.

I really want one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But Anton mentioned semi "auto" trannies and sportshift which are generally associated with torque convertered slushboxes. Therefore I added that clarification to my post. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Understood and why I added my post above. Does this Porsche qualify as a supercar still and near the same status as a Ferrari?

 

I still like dump my clutch from time to time...

 

i drove an SMG M3 at buttonwillow for a bit. wasn't too happy with it. kinda fun for a brief drive but it was too much like a video game. not as involving as a real stick. not for me....yet.

 

Not being able to jump in my own personal "way back" machine, I wonder how enthusiasts/racers felt when trannys first got syncros or sequential gearboxes? Outrage? (now everyone could get away with granny shifting) Elation?

My guess is a tacit recognition of the steady progress of the automobile. I'm sure there were always some that thought high-dollar gadgetry was stupid, unneccessary, etc. ... until they used disc brakes or rev limiters.