Say it ain't so! Rumors are flying. I have to go lay down.

Nissan's cash pile must be a big one. Perhaps Honda is pooling all motorsports resources for Indy and F1 efforts?

 

I've been expecting this news.

Scott, who can't stay logged on too long - I'm expecting a call from Honda!

BTW - You should be vaguer in the Title, and note that it's a "Spoiler". Better yet, don't post Anything anymore - I don't want to know.

 

I know a few guys that are PRO racers and they have always said Honda doesn't really "sponsor" anyone. They just give incredible discounts on OEM parts for World Challenge drivers/teams that meet the 25% minimum of the races. Mazda and Nissan on the other hand go far beyond that type of sponsorship. I wouldn't be surprised....

 

Hey what's up Starnes, haven't seen you around in a long while .

I've sort of suspected something like this for awhile too. I'm not too sure why Honda does it this way but I must say that I think its stupid. The Realtime championships have not gone unnoticed among the performance minded public and I think they have done a lot to silence the FWD and Honda/Acura critics. I think Realtime's success has also endeared the Integra to many enthusiasts.

Now that some of the other manufacturers are trying to get back into the performance game they are raising the stakes. Honda needs to respond in kind.

What I don't understand is how a small company like Mazda can do so much for grassroots motorsports yet Honda does so little (relatively). Maybe its because of Honda's IRL and F1 programs but I don't think that it would kill Honda to give club racers parts at cost and to give bigger contingencies for WC.

OTOH with WC I imagine it would be difficult for Honda to offer a fully factory sponsored deal to Realtime. Their reasoning is probably that it would not be good for the series and it would not be encouraging to other aspiring Acura teams. I figure they should at least meet somewhere between Mazda and Nissan though. Make some of the engine development and chassis development resources available to racers, and give teams parts at or below cost. Beef up the contingency while you're at it.

<side topic>
Which brings me to another problem, I think the cost in Touring is inflating too fast for the series' good. SCCA Pro and Speed have not been advertising the series well (except for Racer Mag ) and the broadcasts are horribly delayed and don't get primetime coverage. As a result, the advertising value of the series has not kept pace with the cost to run it.

Then there's the fact that the rules are too open and are causing wildly escalating costs. SCCA Pro needs to tune down the engine formula, disallow suspension relocation, disallow motec, police legality more, and restrict materials usage. The guys from Franz Blam also suggested that they try to concentrate the race weekend more so that teams only have to be at the track 2 or 3 days rather than 5. I suspect this problem is a bit harder to solve than the technical issues though.
</side topic>

 

wasn't it back in the early 90's when nissan threw all kinds of money at motorsports and basically dominated everything they dipped their hands into?

i wouldn't mind seeing that again

even though i am a big nissan guy, it will be too bad if honda and realtime end their relationship. don't ask me how i got it, but even i have a signed realtime poster in my room with an NSX and ITR on it, signed by some guy with the initials CM in 99, anybody know who this might be. so yeah, even i'll hate to see it end. maybe honda has plans for another team, King maybe?

 

All things come to an end.

Realtime is in the business of racing. They will go where the sponsorship dollars, and more importantly, the factory support is. Running WC these days without factory support just doesn't seem feasible.

If Speed, or SCCA, would mint a DVD of the 98 season I would buy it for $500. The good ole days. Buy ITR, apply stickers, win. No ITR, your best hope is like 10th place. Realtime vs Galati vc DC. Good chit.

 

Mazda = FoMoCo = hardly small

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bill Hook &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mazda = FoMoCo = hardly small</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well Ford only has a 30-something percent stake in Mazda. On top of that Ford has not exactly been swimming in the black lately. I think Honda makes more raw profit than they do. You could venture to say that Honda spends more money on pro racing but that's debateable too. Ford supplies the CART engines, Ford is big in NASCAR, Ford is in WRC, and Ford supplies a Formula 1 team.

So either way you have to admit that Honda could be spending more money on WC or grassroots racing in general than Mazda, a partial subsidiary of Ford, who still spends similar money to Honda on racing, all while being a lot less profitable.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well Ford only has a 30-something percent stake in Mazda. On top of that Ford has not exactly been swimming in the black lately. I think Honda makes more raw profit than they do. You could venture to say that Honda spends more money on pro racing but that's debateable too. Ford supplies the CART engines, Ford is big in NASCAR, Ford is in WRC, and Ford supplies a Formula 1 team.

So either way you have to admit that Honda could be spending more money on WC or grassroots racing in general than Mazda, a partial subsidiary of Ford, who still spends similar money to Honda on racing, all while being a lot less profitable.</TD></TR></TABLE>

33.4%, making it the largest shareholder and the controlling interest, thanks to an agreement w/ #2 shareholder Sumitomo Bank.

Honda may be more profitable, but Ford has way more assets. Of course, these include plants, which are more likely liabilities, practically speaking.

But let's face it, Honda's just cheaping out. It probably won't hurt sales, as the average Accord buyer could give a flip about racing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> don't ask me how i got it, but even i have a signed realtime poster in my room with an NSX and ITR on it, signed by some guy with the initials CM in 99, </TD></TR></TABLE>
I have a Speedvision WC one signed by Pierre, Roger Foo and Taz Harvey. Got it on a day here when Taz and Roger were swapping paint through the chicane.
And some Audi postcards auto'd by Derek Bell. A fun weekend.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a signed realtime poster in my room with an NSX and ITR on it, signed by some guy with the initials CM in 99</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have that poster signed by Peter Cunningham and Pierre Kleinubing. NSXPO '98 was fun.....


Matt

 

This isn't too surprising if you've been paying real close attention. Realtime Racing was named after Honda's Realtime 4wd system. Remember, PD started out ice racing in those realtime 4wd wagony things from Honda. He took the name and formed a race team.

With the switch to the Nissans this year, you know it had to **** off Honda. If you now look at the team, the haulers, clothing, everything, there is a very distinct difference between the Honda side and the Nissan side. While they paddock together, the Acura guys are all called Realtime Racing. The Nissan side, all says TeamRTR. NO where, does TeamRTR get translated to Realtime. The two even have seperate web site.

Working on Foo's team at Road America, his entire crew is made up of Honda guys. One of the guys worked for Honda in Ohio. He was saying that Honda really wanted to put the TSX into the series. He said that RTR had the upper hand in acquiring them, but with the move to Nissan, Honda didn't want much to do with the team anymore. He didn't know if the the TSX would now come out in the series and who'd be backed by Honda for the program. He did think, though, that the car would be quite competitive with the engine and the much preferred suspension of the TSX.

 

The difference between the Honda support and the Nissan support is tremendous. Though Acura supplied cars and some money to RTR, it was never the full factory effort that Nissan is providing. As much as I hate to see those two separate, it's the right thing to do business-wise.

 

to me it still seems like Honda seperates its racing and normal vehicle divisions quite a bit.

racing is strictly r&d and not a marketable aspect of the company...atleast in the US. there's the occasional TV commercial or the like, but when you walk into a Honda dealership (or Acura), you don't see the race cars plastered on the walls like you would a Subaru or Ford dealership.

 

My stance has always been that Honda is not a performance minded company. Their "thing" is fuel efficiency and having greener cars.

Their cars got sucked into the tuner phenomenon but honda has done nothing to encourage that either... well, besides sit still and watch everyone else capitalize off it. The ITR was more of a fluke than anything... they've shown that they are capable of producing this kind of car, they've just decided they don't want to.

I keep buying honda's because I'm familiar with them, but I have no love for the company and no real brand loyalty.

 

that's just the thing, in japan it's different. they have the RSX type R and CTR, and NSX-R, and a hot-rodded version of the S2000 (i think)

honda adapted to what they thought the american market wanted. and they've been spot on thus far. why should they take such a risk and fix something that clearly isn't broke?

Go Nissan!! They have always supported their grassroots racers, all the way back to the days of Datsun.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to me it still seems like Honda seperates its racing and normal vehicle divisions quite a bit.

racing is strictly r&d and not a marketable aspect of the company...atleast in the US. there's the occasional TV commercial or the like, but when you walk into a Honda dealership (or Acura), you don't see the race cars plastered on the walls like you would a Subaru or Ford dealership.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My stance has always been that Honda is not a performance minded company. Their "thing" is fuel efficiency and having greener cars.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honda has always been a green, efficient company but conversely they have always been big into racing. They've been in and out of Formula 1 since the 60's, dominating for a stint in the 80's, dominated CART in the 90's, dominated motorcycle racing for decades...the racing pedigree is there. The problem is the same passion for performance rarely translates into their street cars, even less so for the Hondas we get in the United States.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">racing is strictly r&d and not a marketable aspect of the company...atleast in the US. there's the occasional TV commercial or the like, but when you walk into a Honda dealership (or Acura), you don't see the race cars plastered on the walls like you would a Subaru or Ford dealership.</TD></TR></TABLE>What's stupid is that if you ask Honda they'll tell you how IRL or CART or their F1 involvement is a form of marketing for them. But you almost never see any reference to it in the dealerships. I think salespeople should be required to know Honda's racing history and dealerships should have racing posters as part of the Honda dealer identity package.

Its a damned shame when a Mazda team is made entirely of Honda guys, including a Honda engineer (was his name Lee by any chance?). Come on, here's little 'ole Mazda showing that it has more heart and cares more about its loyal devotees than the second largest Japanese manufacturer and the largest engine manufacturer in the world.

Honda sells lots of cars and the enthusiasts make up a small portion of their overall customer base but the enthusiast is often their best advertising. Honda can keep being dumb about performance and watch as its contingent of hardcore fans evaporates. Then in a focus meeting ten years from now they'll be wondering why their average customer is getting older and why the competition has started to make inroads on their once unassailable products.

Maybe I'm more angry than I should be but I just think that sometimes Honda is stupid about things that should be simple.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Its a damned shame when a Mazda team is made entirely of Honda guys, including a Honda engineer (was his name Lee by any chance?). </TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe it was Doug, but Lee was also there so it might have been him. Also, Nuno (sp?), a Cuban (I think) from Honda Canada. Then you've got Foo's crew cheif, Mike, and general hand, Tim who both race Hondas in IT.

While I know Mazda is supporting the club racers with parts at big discounts, I don't know if their World Challenge efforts are all that it appears to be. It's my understanding that Mazda contracts with Sunbelt to provide engines for the Mazda teams. But it certainly isn't close to the backing that RTR has with the Nissans or PTG has with BMW. Mazda obviously didn't step up to help Foo, the top ranking Mazda driver, to stay in the series.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shmeek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But it certainly isn't close to the backing that RTR has with the Nissans or PTG has with BMW. Mazda obviously didn't step up to help Foo, the top ranking Mazda driver, to stay in the series.</TD></TR></TABLE>True, true. That did suck that Foo had to get out of racing because of the lack of finance, not the lack of skill. I think the low advertising value of WC as well as lack of factory support are both to blame on that one. Not to mention the skyrocketing costs.

 

I'll add on to what i said with what you've mentioned:

Honda is a green-minded company. In Japan they'd be laughed at if they didn't have some kind of performance car...and oh by the way they brought over an "nsx" sports car thingy that's basically bombed in the US.

Motorsports is what breeds car lovers in this country. Honda didn't make money on it at first...they made money on being green-minded, but I think to have good market control and balance, they should be thinking about marketing more in the performance/enthusiast market as well.

People who buy Chevys all know about the Corvette. It's what they dream about. People should walk into a Honda or Acura dealership and see that high-end sports car so they can dream about it, and then look at the Civic parked next to it wearing that same familiar Honda badge.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and oh by the way they brought over an "nsx" sports car thingy that's basically bombed in the US.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It cost too much and the pricing only got worse as the car got older. They were around $70K back in '91 and they're $90K now, with a few freshen ups here and there. They'd have done better if they hadn't exceeded the price inhibitions of the market, particularly with what was their first effort and unproven to enthusiasts.

Also, a V-6 engine lacks cachet, which will hurt the new RL too, no matter what the output is. Porsche and BMW may get away with 6 cylinders, but they have a track record and inherent cachet. Acura introduced a high end sports car when they were still building a brand identity. Currently, their brand ID is a builder of high end "Accords" and "hot hatches" for the bottom end of the luxury market. Hardly a Ferrari, Porsche or BMW. Folks who have the money will pay for those names, walking past anything reeking of Honda, in spite of its attributes.

Given a 20 years (but not 12 years w/ the same body style) and a cheaper price (and, presumeably, greater sales), Honda might have had something with the NSX. I predict they won't do any better w/ a V-6 in the new car, as it seems to be. Racing, however, would be a big antidote to the problem. Honda is obviously not seeing the big picture.

 

The problem with the NSX is just that they let it sit around too long with little change. Porsche is constantly updating and revising the 911 inbetween big redesigns. Ferrari redoes their entry level sports car every 5 to 7 years or so. The NSX sat around for 12 years! In that time the competition leapfrogged it.

In the first 5 years of the NSX's existence it sold enough copies (6333), so I don't think the V6 hurt it that badly. After all, it could run with the much more expensive 348, and do so without having lots of stuff break. The reliability of the car is why a lot of the people that had owned some of the other exotics were attracted to the NSX.

The reliability and a lot of new technology that debuted with the NSX definitely changed the supercar game in the early 90's. The fact that Gordon Murray studied the car when he began designing the F1 says a lot.

I agree though, racing is integral to the pedigree of a car like the NSX. Really, the only supercars that get away with not being involved in racing are Lamborghinis, and that is only because they've had the fastest cars in the world at one time or another. Honda is going to have to prove the new NSX's mettle the same way the Porsches, Ferraris, and the Corvette have.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I keep buying honda's because I'm familiar with them, but I have no love for the company and no real brand loyalty.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. I almost hate to buy another one, but....