now i know these seem to be the underdog,even though there bigger dis placment but i have some thoughts...

in my heart i know i will see a h22 put down 250 whp with out excessive boring or stroking ....

after seeing dynos with the new headers out there (ie smsp,an-r/prospeed) and hoping for a good intake mani i think close to that can be done ......

if im way off base on this one, what is it about the h22 that makes it put down crappy numbers......and by that i mean around 200whp...

B series can put down that no problem ...what gives....

i would love to see a motor like satan_srv's motor with smsp header and even a reworked euro r manifold....with the work into his motor i think its possible for him to see those numbers...

so on that note lets here your thoughts on this ....and sorry if its a bit off topic

and go ahead and flame...kinda expect it now


Modified by machine4321 at 12:17 AM 9/30/2003

 

h22's can puit down decent #'s and very nice times check out luckyracing....h22 specialist

 

ya hes one ive been wanting to talk to ...never seem to see him anymore

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would love to see a motor like satan_srv's motor with smsp header and even a reworked euro r manifold....with the work into his motor i think its possible for him to see those numbers... </TD></TR></TABLE>
I have the SMSP 4-1 and the Euro r, but my engine is stroked...

 

i just dyno'd my car on last thursday...stock bottom end, mild ported head, stock cams, tuned ecu, str 70mm tb, DTR side exit header...it made 203whp and 158tq...can't wait to try the header out on my new 2.4L 14:1 90mm block w/ crower stage 3 cams.

 

what is your setup?<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have the SMSP 4-1 and the Euro r, but my engine is stroked...</TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=627905

that is my recipe for big all motor h22 numbers

200wtrq isnt that far away.

i wont do it this year, but it might be an interesting project for mid next year

i know one place is working on some trick stuff in the head, which should allow a bigger camshaft

there is definetly power potential, someone just needs to spend the money to do it.

you could easily build a 230+whp h22 with under 5g's. i doubt that could be done on a b with that much money

 

Bob-DC2, here is my set-up...

Engine Block:
'93 H22a
Custom 98mm Crank (Balanced and nitrited)
Darton sleeves
Crower Pro-billet rods
Custom 12/1 compression 89mm JE pistons
Prodrive oil pump
Unorthodox Racing crank pulley
manual timing belt tensioner conversion
Power industries timing belt

Cylinder head:
Ported and polished by Collective Racing
Web Cams custom camshafts
Web Cams springs and Titainium retainers
SI industries Rev series valves
Euro Type R manifold conversion
Hondata intake manifold gasket
Erick's Racing 70-68mm Throttle body
RC engineering 440cc Fuel injectors
B&M fuel pressure riser
Parker liquid fuel Guage
STR cam seal
STR cam gears
SMSP 4-1 header (prototype)
ARP head studs
89mm bore Cometic Head gasket

Misc:
JDM "blue" valve cover
Dyna Batt 11lb. battery
Nology coil
NGK wires
AEM 3" cold air intake
AEM underdrive pulleys
LINK programmable ECU
Tech Edge wideband O2
Full custom exaust
STAR stage 3 clutch
ACT lightened flywheel


I definately think you are on to something here... I feel that I will be close to 200 wtq as soon as I can spend some time on the dyno. My last trip to the dyno was unfinished but with basic tuning on the LINK, I was able to get 229 HP and 175 TQ. There was a lot of tunning left to be done. I had only time to get a rough fuel and ignition maps set.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">damint, dont tempt me to hit 200wtq
i think if you did
3" intake
rlz intake manifold
rlz custom P&P head with valve job
custom ef-1 cams
ef-1 sprigns/retainers
cam gears
kick *** header designed around the setup
cp pistons at 12:0 cr
carrillo rods, acl bearings
sleave it to 2.3 or 2.4, i would have to do the math to see what would be best
some other trick rocker arm stuff and a few other tricks that arent general knowledge. mighte be able to hit 200tq

i dont have the patience for figure out all the crap to hit that though. i think it could be done though

all brought together by hondata tuned by bubba at trackmasters, i </TD></TR></TABLE>




Modified by 2point6 at 1:12 PM 9/30/2003

 

that is a very complete setup

how agressive are the cams that you have?

i would obviosly just change to our pistons, rlz porting and our cam/springs/retainers

did you get to play with cam gears as well? because when you have a different intake manifold/header/cams it changes the way where the cams make power

besides that, its a sweet setup

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bob-DC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that is a very complete setup</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, I got a little long winded...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how agressive are the cams that you have?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The cams are relatively small The intake valve lift on the VTEC lobe is .475/ duration @ .050 is 250 degrees and the exaust valve lift is .435/ duration @ .050 is 245 degrees

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would obviosly just change to our pistons, rlz porting and our cam/springs/retainers</TD></TR></TABLE>
What would be the benifits? Just curious? I understand that they are your products so being "faithful", but other than that?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">did you get to play with cam gears as well? because when you have a different intake manifold/header/cams it changes the way where the cams make power</TD></TR></TABLE>
Unfortunately, I did not get to make any adjustments to the cam timing. I just made base fuel and timing adjustments for the ECU. Very rough settings.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">besides that, its a sweet setup
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thankyou, but like all things, I am sure improvements can be made and I am open to suggestions.

 

2.6 didnt you have some problems on the dyno since you got the header and mani installed ???

 

wow kwik93si see those are good numbers for stock cams and such.....i really think the power is in the header....as with you motor ..and i cant wait to see your new one on the dyno .....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2.6 didnt you have some problems on the dyno since you got the header and mani installed ???</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not this last dyno session... The one I had issues with was when the R & D crank broke on the drive up to the facility, but since then I had my own crank made (much more superior). Yes, at that time I had the header and the manifold on the engine. I finally got it on the dyno last month for a baseline tune, but I am now breaking tranny parts and haven't been able to get the time to go back to the dyno. I feel I dynoed really well considering the very limited time spent tunning my LINK ecu. I had no prior experience with the unit and was only able to make rough adjustments. I am now getting better and found some support with the unit. time spent on the Dyno was about an hour and a half. I had to make up the complete fuel and ignition maps from scratch...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by machine4321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow kwik93si see those are good numbers for stock cams and such.....i really think the power is in the header....as with you motor ..and i cant wait to see your new one on the dyno .....</TD></TR></TABLE>
i can't wait either man...I've been waiting all summer for it...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I had to make up the complete fuel and ignition maps from scratch...</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, if you did that, and u have no prior experience before from doing base maps, then you have at least another 10whp bare miniumum you can see from tuning fuel and ignition if someone does it that knows what they are doing.

u should be able to get another 5whp from cam gears too


well cp so far has made some big power over most of the other pistons we have seen.

our cams &gt; most everyone elses cams. it also helps to have the cam designed around the head flow or the head designed around the cam spec.

rlz is da man when it comes to porting. there are alot of good head porters out there, in my limited span of knowledge he seems to be the best out there.

he has done alot of research in terms of how air and other fluids flow and how to increase efficiency.
very few other places have done the research and tests he has done.

that doesnt mean he is the best in the world. i consider shops like portflow, jg etc.. still able to make a ton of power from there good skillz in head porting. it all comes back to your application, what you can afford, the time frame you need it in, and what kind of service you want.

i know first hand portflow delivers in alot of categories. i would recomend both shops to good freinds and customers

 

I'm building a h22 in the winter I will keep you guys posted on the stepup and progress. I"m shooting for 230whp on pump gas i get 94 octane. Which is very attainable with the right parts and alot of tuning OMG. Yeah their is alot of power in the department of the header with a H22. And I don't plan on running some crazy high compression either. I seen alot of dyno's with H22 that have alot of parts but the numbers just don't match up. Seems as though they just need to find the right person to tune the engine. Every performance part compliments each other, its just certain ones do it better then others, and that is the difficult part. But 200whp is very easy to attain an H22.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by machine4321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">now i know these seem to be the underdog,even though there bigger dis placment but i have some thoughts...

in my heart i know i will see a h22 put down 250 whp with out excessive boring or stroking ....</TD></TR></TABLE>

The H22A is not an underdog. Just a kind of white elephant. The whole problem with the H22A is the difficulty associated with swapping it into Civics. That is why they are not used as much as B-motors. Believe me, if the H22A was a realistic option for my CRX, I would have gone H22A and not B18C5. The H22A puts out as much power stock with MUCH more torque. The larger displacement means that it has potential to make WAYYYYYY more power. It can be gotten in OBDI configuration. And the entire changeover costs about $1000 less than I paid for JUST my B18C5 complete motor. In fact, an ENTIRE H22A changeover only costs $200 more than a complete B18C1 motor from passwordjdm.com! The only problem is that there is no way to easily get one into a CRX. If I could have, I would never have even considered the B18C5.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bob-DC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
wow, if you did that, and u have no prior experience before from doing base maps, then you have at least another 10whp bare miniumum you can see from tuning fuel and ignition if someone does it that knows what they are doing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Tell me about it... I really wish I knew what the hell I was doing at the time because it would sure have sped up the tuning process. Right now I have the fuel and ignition maps created so that it will drive nicely around town, but no "real" tunning has been done for wide open throttle. I hope to see 10+ WHP and more torque.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ld be able to get another 5whp from cam gears too</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was only guessing 1 or 2 HP to be made.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> so far has made some big power over most of the other pistons we have seen.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How much different are the CP pistons? Why would they make more power over a competitor? Is there a web site you can point me to?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> most everyone elses cams. it also helps to have the cam designed around the head flow or the head designed around the cam spec.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I feel that my cams are a bit on the small side. The head was ported very nicely and flows good up to a .055 lift without compromizing air velocity. What is your feeling about the cams? How can I per se, compare my flow sheet to get an "optimized"cam?

 

H Series Motors defently can & do make more Hp than B series. The only weak link is the transmisson and availablity of custom gears and ratios.
10.36@134
I have many parts and ideas for you guys pleas einquire with me. you can make 225whp w stock Type S pistons.

 

Hey Jeremy, Can you advise me on my particular case dealing with camshafts?

 

I am not a expert, but far from piston tech and know why a piston makes more power than another. well i know roughly but not that much

depending upon the shape of the dome, the valve reliefs, how the piston rings are setup. the metal the piston is made out of, and how much the piston weighs. all will change how much power you can make.

that is why alot of big engine builders like brad @ rlz or import builders have their own designed piston setups to make big power.

it was just a matter of brand preference because they were all teh same, then the market would be alot different.

i would talk to rocket, or another cam designed that can do cams. there are a few cam companies in the us that are good stuff, but arent really aware of teh whole internet thing.
just a matter of finding them.

you should easily pick up good power with the cam gears, for the reasons of how you have a differetn intake manifold, cams, ported head, and header. all change the way the air flows in and out of the head. changing cam gear settings allow you have the cams work properly with the other parts in your air flow system

people really need to get an smsp header, or another header that isnt a joke. you need to have really good collectors, have the diameter of the piping match the motor setup and so on.

im not a header expert of close to it, but i know roughly waht designes dont work, and alot of the stuff i see on here is kinda weak.

im betting lnatural1, how a package for cams, cam gears, intake manifold, tuning base map maybe, good header and possible ported head.
its not a matter of just getting all of those, its a matter of getting all of those, and have each work with each other properly

 

Im going to be hard at work on bringing out a whole slew of parts for the H22 in the coming months. We have pretty much covered B-series power and will continue to improve on that but I kinda saw us leaving behind the H22 when it came time for parts production. I didnt want to see that so Ive been decided to build an H22 and get some new stuff out there for them. The H22 IMO is full of potential its just since the ease of swapping a b-series motor is so appealing to the masses the H22 was kinda left behind, this Im talking about is during the mid 90's. That particualr time is where the industry really started to take off and since the demand was so heavy back then for B-series manufacturers answered the calls for it. that pattern has pretty much carried on through the years but what alot of people dont seem to realize is the pure potential in the H series motors. some of but not the majority of the worlds fastest hondas run H22's... Anyone remember a guy by the name of Papadakis? H series guy from day one (he had an LS waaaay back in the day but whatever... lol)... no need to list his accomplishments. The cost of building an H22 is also not too appealing but all factors aside I think we can get some serious power out of them.

Im going to be building a couple of H22 motors here in the next few months. The first will be NA for a daily 98 'lude and the second motor will be a Turbo motor most liekly for the same car. Im going to try and get this car into the 12's all motor without hacking it to pieces. I want to keep it streetable and be able to drive to and from the track and leave with a handfull of some mid 12 second time slips.

This first motor will be an IB Spec NA H23/Vtec motor, the set up will remain top secret but I assure you its unlike anything else out there. This will also give us an oppertunity to test alot of our prototype H22 goodies ... Im going to be starting this build very soon.

The second motor will be an IB Spec Turbo H22 motor... this one isnt going to be something I get the ball rolling on right away but if the NA build is a success I might just push up my original build dates.

 

that sounds great ......i look forward to the progress


i guess from what ive been reading the header selection "was"crappy at one time but know seems to be getting much better .......

i really think that the intake mani and header are the main factors for limiting high rpm power.....and ecu selection i guess....

my next dish out of money will be on a nice header ....an-r i guess just cause of my cash probs.......smsp would be nice since ive seen 5th gens running 200whp with boltons.....

oh and has any one had any good gains with ported stock intake manis??