Okay now I know a lot of you have DSM injectors in your car, and you guys get it running right, but this is my problem... Right now I got a high idle, which I think is from my TPS being misaligned a little, so thats no big deal, I will just straighten it up a little and hopefully that will be fixed. But the car runs extrememly rich, and I cant get it to lean out anymore. I have the vtec controller set all the way negative, and I have the FPR turned down a lot too. And its running rich as hell. What do you guys do to get it running good and right?

I am also running NGK plugs, MSD 6a ignition, SS blaster coil, and mallory wires.

 

what size injectors are you running...or from what car are they from? they might be just too big for the Fields sfc to correct for. i know ive heard of people being able to idle 440cc/min injectors with the Apexi safc, but i dont have any experience with the fields or apexi units so i dont know how different they are. so sorry, i guess i cant help much.

i would get the TPS straightened out first then go from there. cause if its regesterting highter throttle amounts, and if the MAP is keeping up with it because of the high compression...it may just be overfueling for the given amount of throttle. if that makes any sence at all.

 

It does make sense also, thats why i noted that in there, cause I think that could be the problem, the TPS. They are the 440s.

If anyone else has any comments, or suggestions please let me know, need to get it straightened out...

 

ttt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and if the MAP is keeping up with it because of the high compression...</TD></TR></TABLE>

that makes no sense.

 

Basically what he is saying is that since it idles high due to the TPS settings being off that that might be the cause of him to running rich.

I agree with him I mean if you have the afc completely leaned out and the fpr tuned down I would fix what is causing the high idle and then go from there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicDXdude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

that makes no sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>

to find the pulse width of the injector the ecu must look it up in an established table. for a given engine speed (rpm) and a given MAP reading (in-Hg or equivalent) the ecu finds the appropriate pulse time (ms) for the injector. of course there is more to it than that...such as TPS, IAT, O2, Atmospheric Pressure sensors, etc.

When the engine is mapped for VE from the factory, it is totally stock. so if any sensor readings are off the amount of fuel delivered wont be exactly as needed. also if the engine is modified, such as high compression, headers, intakes, TBs...the VE is changed and therefore the fuel delivered most likely will not be correct.

as you can tell i am in no way an expert at the workings of a honda ecu, but as far as i know the ecu is able to correct for small changes in production and wear but not for running 12:1 CR with a high lift/duration cam and tons of headwork.

all i was saying is that highly modified engines may produce a MAP reading at a certain rpm that tells the ecu that the VE is one percentage when it really is not.

i apologize if this makes no sense also....

 

fastcrx, that makes sense. Any ideas how to fix it or anything anyone? thanks for the help.

 

id try the all motor/or force fed forums too...

 

The reason I was asking here is cause its a common thing for EF owners to put DSM injectors in there cars, and most everyone who does it gets it running good, and I know there not something you put in, and bam its all good. So I was just trying to get to see what everyone does to get there DSMs running right.

(BTW not flaming or anything madman, just letting known why i posted here, i made a post in the all-motor one a while ago, never got any responses)

 

yeh, my friend has a 94 gsr turbo and he had to wire in a injector resistor box for the dsm 440's he got off ebay for 50 bucks, but it turned out one of them was bad.
his sn blacknightgsr

he might be able to help you out b/c he's done tons of research on turbos and honda and crap before he dove into it.

 

bump for more info.

from what i understand you cannot turn you fuel pressure DOWN with a B&M FPR you can only go up. What kind of FPR do you have?

also DSM injectors came in 440 and 450cc correct?
do they clip right in to your harness or fuel rail without any modifcations?

 

They clipped right into the original harness. My B&M does adjust fuel pressure down, or so my guage shows, lol, it shows now at 18 psi at idle. You need to modify some o-rings for the manifold, from what i heard, but i fit some in without. I mean driving wise, the injectors work GREAT. Just from the smoke outta the exhaust, I dont want that. It billows out black, and plugs would be being wasted all day long. I have already went through 3 sets of ngks just tyring to get it running right.

 

i think you have waaay too large injectors for your setup. usually the 440's go into turbo projects, not all motor beasts. i think you're just throwing waay too much fuel at it, and not near enough air

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skud_dusty &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think you have waaay too large injectors for your setup. usually the 440's go into turbo projects, not all motor beasts. i think you're just throwing waay too much fuel at it, and not near enough air</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly, I mean I don't know what size injectors all the n/a junkies are running, but ****, 450s!!! Stock is 240 and you're almost doubling that amount when it's not needed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Charlie Moua &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">also DSM injectors came in 440 and 450cc correct?
do they clip right in to your harness or fuel rail without any modifcations?</TD></TR></TABLE>

there are also DSM 390cc injectors out there. i'm running a set of them myself. yes they plug right into the injectors clips but you do have to modify the o-ring that the injectors sit in. the DSM 390s are much wider than the Honda 240s so you have to open the I.D. of the o-rings a bit.

 

so what are some tips to get them running right, if there are some? I knwo there are some people that are using them for there all motor applications right?

 

Well, for one thing your injectors are too large for all motor. For comparison, Erick Aguilar runs 440's in his 9s Civic.

Next, your sig says you got the Field's controller. If I'm right, then it only corrects to +/-30% and that's not enough to lean out the 450's. It's too rich (as you can already tell.)

I installed 450's in my Y8 before I went turbo and it ran fine with the settings at roughly -45-48%. Of course, now I am turbo.

EDIT: I use the APEXi VAFC

 

edited because i was wrong

good job we got some guys on HT that actually know what they're talking about


Modified by skud_dusty at 10:24 PM 9/28/2003

 

I've ran 450's on a built sohc non vtec 1.5L for quite a while. stock fuel pressure, stock fuel pump. red line was at 6200 rpm
1K -29%
2K -32%
3K -45%
4k -43%
5K -46%
6K -45%
7K -45%
8K -45%

Those percentages are the aproximite #'s that i used. The car has to run quite rich to idle properly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skud_dusty &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get the non-turbo injectors. if you sell the 450's, you'll have money enough to get the non-turbo injectors, and possibly have some leftover cash in your pocket. the non-turbo ones are the 390's i think...not sure though

i know the non-turbo's are small though, and they use the same resister box</TD></TR></TABLE>

the non turbo injectors are 290cc. the 390cc injectors came with the Talon/Eclipse/Laser Turbo cars with Automatic trannies.

fwiw, the non-turbo (290cc) injectors are high impedance, saturated
the Turbo (390, 440, and 450cc) injectors are low impedance, peak and hold.

hth,
J

 

bump for the great info!

 

A freind of mine has the APEX vtec controller, and what I can do is get it form him to tune it down. But neither of us now how to even use it. What setting do you go into to put less fuel in the motor? Thats what I need to know...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeper4dr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the non turbo injectors are 290cc. the 390cc injectors came with the Talon/Eclipse/Laser Turbo cars with Automatic trannies.

fwiw, the non-turbo (290cc) injectors are high impedance, saturated
the Turbo (390, 440, and 450cc) injectors are low impedance, peak and hold.

hth,
J</TD></TR></TABLE>

Make sure you specify what generation it is. The injector sizes changed between 1G eclipses (94 and older) and 2G (95-99). the N/T injector size for 2G eclipses is only 235cc while on 1G it was 250cc (as the 2G had the 420a motor and the 1G had the N/T 4g63). i doubt the 2G N/T injectors would fit since they're a different shape than the 4g63 injectors so if you do get N/T injectors make sure they're from the 1G eclipse (cause they're slightly bigger and perform better than 2G which have shown readings as low as 190cc because of different fuel pressure)