Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3?
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3?
Just a curious question.
If I had an EK hatch and used a stock b16a2 engine/tranny and the Si brakes and suspension bits and ran the same minimum weight as an Si would I be able to compete in H3? Just curious and it popped into my head. Just wondering if there's any unfair advantage there.
It might be something you guys would want to look into. Might be a good question for EG hatches as well, could they run in H3 with a b16a2/3 as long as they were the same minimum weight as an Si or Del Sol and used the same brakes? There's so many hybrids out there and to me it would seem fair. I know you want hybrids in H1 but it would seem to me that you might be able to attract more people if you allowed a completely stock engine swap and brakes and made them adhere to a certain minimum weight to make it fair.
If this has ever been addressed sorry but it just seems like a good addition to the rules to attract more cars/drivers to the mix.
s
If I had an EK hatch and used a stock b16a2 engine/tranny and the Si brakes and suspension bits and ran the same minimum weight as an Si would I be able to compete in H3? Just curious and it popped into my head. Just wondering if there's any unfair advantage there.
It might be something you guys would want to look into. Might be a good question for EG hatches as well, could they run in H3 with a b16a2/3 as long as they were the same minimum weight as an Si or Del Sol and used the same brakes? There's so many hybrids out there and to me it would seem fair. I know you want hybrids in H1 but it would seem to me that you might be able to attract more people if you allowed a completely stock engine swap and brakes and made them adhere to a certain minimum weight to make it fair.
If this has ever been addressed sorry but it just seems like a good addition to the rules to attract more cars/drivers to the mix.
s
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (FAST4DR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FAST4DR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">H1. Hybrid is a hybrid, regardless of how much it is modified.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I realize that it isn't in the current rules. I was wondering if this has ever been considered and/or thought about being added to the rules. Seems fair to me. Same brakes, same engine, same weight, slightly different chassis. I don't know if weight distribution gives you an advantage or if the wheel base does either but that's the only thing I could think of.
Even if it isn't in the rules I wonder if someone else has thought about doing it anyway. If your fellow H3 competitors don't mind and don't protest you could do it anyways. Of course if you were winning H3 all the time problems might come up.
s
I realize that it isn't in the current rules. I was wondering if this has ever been considered and/or thought about being added to the rules. Seems fair to me. Same brakes, same engine, same weight, slightly different chassis. I don't know if weight distribution gives you an advantage or if the wheel base does either but that's the only thing I could think of.
Even if it isn't in the rules I wonder if someone else has thought about doing it anyway. If your fellow H3 competitors don't mind and don't protest you could do it anyways. Of course if you were winning H3 all the time problems might come up.
s
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 0
From: Bloomington, IN
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (FAST4DR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FAST4DR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">H1. Hybrid is a hybrid, regardless of how much it is modified.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep. The engine updating/backdating doesn't always work out the way it does with autocross classes.
Yep. The engine updating/backdating doesn't always work out the way it does with autocross classes.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,163
Likes: 0
From: Bloomington, IN
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I realize that it isn't in the current rules. I was wondering if this has ever been considered and/or thought about being added to the rules. Seems fair to me. Same brakes, same engine, same weight, slightly different chassis. I don't know if weight distribution gives you an advantage or if the wheel base does either but I think that's the only thing I could think of.
Even if it isn't in the rules I wonder if someone else has thought about doing it anyway. If your fellow H3 competitors don't mind and don't protest you could do it anyways. Of course if you were winning H3 all the time problems might come up.
s </TD></TR></TABLE>
Just read that, so I thought I'd post the NASA forums site. http://www.nasaforums.com/ I don't read there much, but it may have come up at some point.
I realize that it isn't in the current rules. I was wondering if this has ever been considered and/or thought about being added to the rules. Seems fair to me. Same brakes, same engine, same weight, slightly different chassis. I don't know if weight distribution gives you an advantage or if the wheel base does either but I think that's the only thing I could think of.
Even if it isn't in the rules I wonder if someone else has thought about doing it anyway. If your fellow H3 competitors don't mind and don't protest you could do it anyways. Of course if you were winning H3 all the time problems might come up.
s </TD></TR></TABLE>
Just read that, so I thought I'd post the NASA forums site. http://www.nasaforums.com/ I don't read there much, but it may have come up at some point.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (clm)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Just read that, so I thought I'd post the NASA forums site. http://www.nasaforums.com/ I don't read there much, but it may have come up at some point.</TD></TR></TABLE>
cool. i looked thru quick and then posted the same question over there.
thx.
s
Just read that, so I thought I'd post the NASA forums site. http://www.nasaforums.com/ I don't read there much, but it may have come up at some point.</TD></TR></TABLE>
cool. i looked thru quick and then posted the same question over there.
thx.
s
Trending Topics
Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,161
Likes: 0
From: Merrimack,, NH, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
Remember, after this year, NASA is in charge of all HC rules all over the country (including ECHC). My guess is that there is some form of formal suggestion process for car classing and such. Hit up the National Office in CA and I bet they could tell you.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
Specifying a class for specific hybrids just opens up a big *** can of worms. Its not worth it under the current classing structure.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,846
Likes: 1
From: I started it
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
Cross-posting both here and on nasaforums.com so everybody sees it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I had an EK hatch and used a stock b16a2 engine/tranny and the Si brakes and suspension bits and ran the same minimum weight as an Si would I be able to compete in H3? Just curious and it popped into my head. Just wondering if there's any unfair advantage there. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If I have anything to do with it...and I do...things like this will not be allowed. A hybrid is a hybrid, period, so into H1 they go. Even your example, which is effectively a hatchback version of an H3 99-00 Si.
I also don't care if it's not a particularly fast hybrid. CRX with a JDM ZC Motor? H1. Integra GS-R with Integra Type R brakes and hubs? H1 hybrid. At least one local guy has changed from a ZC CRX to LS/VTEC B18 as a result.
The reason is simple. Once you open up the rules to the "It should be about like an H3 Civic Si so we'll stick in H3 and see how things go" approach, you have to do this for all possible cars. Trust me...the minute this particular example moves to H3, everybody and their brother will "propose" that their car get moved to H2 or H4 or whatever. It'd be impossible to make fair and equitable for everyone, and it's *enormously* complicated. It'll never work.
As to "registering in H3 anyway," as a series director I'd personally put a stop to that. That represents blatant disregard for the rules. Theoretically, everyone else has built a car legal for their chosen class...what exactly is it that exempts you from doing the same?
The next question might be (and I actually get this a lot, which is why I'm mentioning it), "Why don't you do it like American Iron does, with power to weight ratios." Well I saw that whole thing happen at VIR and see some holes. The first, most obvious hole is that the same dyno is not always available at every race weekend. This may not be the case elsewhere, but it damn sure is with Virginia region. Same can be said of scales...probably a different set of scales every other race. So let's say we ballast a car after race 1 to make a given power to weight ratio. At race 2, we have different gear. Is this car now legal because it's legal, or because the equipment has changed? You don't know. That's the problem.
P/W ratios also require that all cars be dyno'd (which not all drivers might be agreeable with). Or does it? Do we not dyno 3rd place and below? That's fine, except for the guy who's in 4th place in a class of 8. That guy is potentially getting the shaft. Of course if we dyno everybody, it takes several hours to get through impound...also not a good situation.
Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh, or that I'm flaming you, that is not my intention at all. But many other people will read these questions you're asking, so I'm trying to be as crystal clear as I possibly can.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I had an EK hatch and used a stock b16a2 engine/tranny and the Si brakes and suspension bits and ran the same minimum weight as an Si would I be able to compete in H3? Just curious and it popped into my head. Just wondering if there's any unfair advantage there. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If I have anything to do with it...and I do...things like this will not be allowed. A hybrid is a hybrid, period, so into H1 they go. Even your example, which is effectively a hatchback version of an H3 99-00 Si.
I also don't care if it's not a particularly fast hybrid. CRX with a JDM ZC Motor? H1. Integra GS-R with Integra Type R brakes and hubs? H1 hybrid. At least one local guy has changed from a ZC CRX to LS/VTEC B18 as a result.
The reason is simple. Once you open up the rules to the "It should be about like an H3 Civic Si so we'll stick in H3 and see how things go" approach, you have to do this for all possible cars. Trust me...the minute this particular example moves to H3, everybody and their brother will "propose" that their car get moved to H2 or H4 or whatever. It'd be impossible to make fair and equitable for everyone, and it's *enormously* complicated. It'll never work.
As to "registering in H3 anyway," as a series director I'd personally put a stop to that. That represents blatant disregard for the rules. Theoretically, everyone else has built a car legal for their chosen class...what exactly is it that exempts you from doing the same?
The next question might be (and I actually get this a lot, which is why I'm mentioning it), "Why don't you do it like American Iron does, with power to weight ratios." Well I saw that whole thing happen at VIR and see some holes. The first, most obvious hole is that the same dyno is not always available at every race weekend. This may not be the case elsewhere, but it damn sure is with Virginia region. Same can be said of scales...probably a different set of scales every other race. So let's say we ballast a car after race 1 to make a given power to weight ratio. At race 2, we have different gear. Is this car now legal because it's legal, or because the equipment has changed? You don't know. That's the problem.
P/W ratios also require that all cars be dyno'd (which not all drivers might be agreeable with). Or does it? Do we not dyno 3rd place and below? That's fine, except for the guy who's in 4th place in a class of 8. That guy is potentially getting the shaft. Of course if we dyno everybody, it takes several hours to get through impound...also not a good situation.
Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh, or that I'm flaming you, that is not my intention at all. But many other people will read these questions you're asking, so I'm trying to be as crystal clear as I possibly can.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (krshultz)
from nasaforums:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just think it will get more people into the series, with spending less money.. You can buy a hatch for 2k, put a 4500$ ITR motor in it and brakes, and play in H2.. Instead of spending the money for building the motor for H1.. Flamers flame away..... Just understand, I didn't write this to attack the current rulebook, like others like do, just to look at another possible option.</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's exactly what i thought too. Karl doesn't think it's a good idea and opens a can of worms.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> "It should be about like an H3 Civic Si so we'll stick in H3 and see how things go" approach, you have to do this for all possible cars. Trust me...the minute this particular example moves to H3, everybody and their brother will "propose" that their car get moved to H2 or H4 or whatever. It'd be impossible to make fair and equitable for everyone, and it's *enormously* complicated. It'll never work.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can see where you're coming from Karl but if you impose the same weight minimum I think it takes away that guessing game instead of "stick it in H3 and see how it goes". If he wants to do that he's going to have to have the same minimum weight even though his car was xxx lbs lighter from the factory.
I just think it would attract more people and it seems that a lot of rules have been made towards that end so I thought this would help. I really have no personal interest as I'm not building a car and the ECHC is too far away for me anyways. I just thought it was a good idea and almost along the same lines as the SCCA update/backdate rule.
just my .02.
steve
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just think it will get more people into the series, with spending less money.. You can buy a hatch for 2k, put a 4500$ ITR motor in it and brakes, and play in H2.. Instead of spending the money for building the motor for H1.. Flamers flame away..... Just understand, I didn't write this to attack the current rulebook, like others like do, just to look at another possible option.</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's exactly what i thought too. Karl doesn't think it's a good idea and opens a can of worms.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> "It should be about like an H3 Civic Si so we'll stick in H3 and see how things go" approach, you have to do this for all possible cars. Trust me...the minute this particular example moves to H3, everybody and their brother will "propose" that their car get moved to H2 or H4 or whatever. It'd be impossible to make fair and equitable for everyone, and it's *enormously* complicated. It'll never work.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can see where you're coming from Karl but if you impose the same weight minimum I think it takes away that guessing game instead of "stick it in H3 and see how it goes". If he wants to do that he's going to have to have the same minimum weight even though his car was xxx lbs lighter from the factory.
I just think it would attract more people and it seems that a lot of rules have been made towards that end so I thought this would help. I really have no personal interest as I'm not building a car and the ECHC is too far away for me anyways. I just thought it was a good idea and almost along the same lines as the SCCA update/backdate rule.
just my .02.
steve
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 18,961
Likes: 76
From: I am Tyson
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
im with karl, and this is just my meaningless opinion on a forum that doesnt answer other race series rules, that to make this "exception", youre then just making the H1-5 classifications based on engine. Unless thats the philoshophy the rules makers, Ryan F, et al, want to go with the series, then it doesnt make sense to allow this.
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (Tyson)
Sort of off topic but I'll post in here as it is somewhat related...
Hybrid race in H1. If I get an EJ6, ITR 5 lug, and a B18C5, will I be able to be at least a little competitive without prior experience? The reason I'm asking is that I'm picking up a 2000 DX hb next week and getting a 5 lug conversion soon after. Without the engine swap, I'll get blown away (although seat time will be nice) right?
Also, I read over the SCCA and East Coast Honda Challange rules and they state your block internals must be all OEM. Did I read this right which means some of the cars I see running with Eagle rods and such are illegal? Or did I miss something? Thanks a lot if you answer and go easy on me for stealing the thread.
Hybrid race in H1. If I get an EJ6, ITR 5 lug, and a B18C5, will I be able to be at least a little competitive without prior experience? The reason I'm asking is that I'm picking up a 2000 DX hb next week and getting a 5 lug conversion soon after. Without the engine swap, I'll get blown away (although seat time will be nice) right?
Also, I read over the SCCA and East Coast Honda Challange rules and they state your block internals must be all OEM. Did I read this right which means some of the cars I see running with Eagle rods and such are illegal? Or did I miss something? Thanks a lot if you answer and go easy on me for stealing the thread.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (Aquafina)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aquafina »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hybrid race in H1. If I get an EJ6, ITR 5 lug, and a B18C5, will I be able to be at least a little competitive without prior experience? The reason I'm asking is that I'm picking up a 2000 DX hb next week and getting a 5 lug conversion soon after. Without the engine swap, I'll get blown away (although seat time will be nice) right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Instead of wasting money on a 5-lug, buy some suspension and tires. You can always sort the car out in H4 with the DX motor in it. I promise you its not as slow as you think it is.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, I read over the SCCA and East Coast Honda Challange rules and they state your block internals must be all OEM. Did I read this right</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes you did. Everything in the shortblock must be OE parts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> which means some of the cars I see running with Eagle rods and such are illegal? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Eagle rods are illegal. I dont think anyone's running them though. If they were, pulling the oil pan would reveal it.
Instead of wasting money on a 5-lug, buy some suspension and tires. You can always sort the car out in H4 with the DX motor in it. I promise you its not as slow as you think it is.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, I read over the SCCA and East Coast Honda Challange rules and they state your block internals must be all OEM. Did I read this right</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes you did. Everything in the shortblock must be OE parts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> which means some of the cars I see running with Eagle rods and such are illegal? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Eagle rods are illegal. I dont think anyone's running them though. If they were, pulling the oil pan would reveal it.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can see where you're coming from Karl but if you impose the same weight minimum I think it takes away that guessing game instead of "stick it in H3 and see how it goes". If he wants to do that he's going to have to have the same minimum weight even though his car was xxx lbs lighter from the factory.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Then what about a B18c5 in a EK hatch. Or a B18c1 in a EF hatch. Or a B16 in a CRX. Or a B18c5 in a civic wagon (dont laugh, eric rosen had one out last year). What about... i could keep going on and on. But if you do that, then what the hell is the point of H1 anyways? There's such a myriad of combinations of engine and chassis thanks to honda's design philosophies that its a big can of worms to mess with. The only "swap" that makes sense involves tubs that differ only in trim levels and model designations but are otherwise identical.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just think it would attract more people and it seems that a lot of rules have been made towards that end so I thought this would help. I really have no personal interest as I'm not building a car and the ECHC is too far away for me anyways. I just thought it was a good idea and almost along the same lines as the SCCA update/backdate rule.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The SCCA update/backdate rule covers motors that were originally had in the same chassis but different trim levels. Nowhere in the SCCA rules can you put a B16A2 in a EK hatch and call it a DSP Civic Si.
I hope you see the point in this... Besides, ECHC is supposed to be a fun grassroots series. Its club racing. And if you dont think a b16 can be *competitive* then get a good driver in one and you'll be suprised. I sure was. They'll never win, but they can put on a good show.
RJ
Then what about a B18c5 in a EK hatch. Or a B18c1 in a EF hatch. Or a B16 in a CRX. Or a B18c5 in a civic wagon (dont laugh, eric rosen had one out last year). What about... i could keep going on and on. But if you do that, then what the hell is the point of H1 anyways? There's such a myriad of combinations of engine and chassis thanks to honda's design philosophies that its a big can of worms to mess with. The only "swap" that makes sense involves tubs that differ only in trim levels and model designations but are otherwise identical.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just think it would attract more people and it seems that a lot of rules have been made towards that end so I thought this would help. I really have no personal interest as I'm not building a car and the ECHC is too far away for me anyways. I just thought it was a good idea and almost along the same lines as the SCCA update/backdate rule.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The SCCA update/backdate rule covers motors that were originally had in the same chassis but different trim levels. Nowhere in the SCCA rules can you put a B16A2 in a EK hatch and call it a DSP Civic Si.
I hope you see the point in this... Besides, ECHC is supposed to be a fun grassroots series. Its club racing. And if you dont think a b16 can be *competitive* then get a good driver in one and you'll be suprised. I sure was. They'll never win, but they can put on a good show.
RJ
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Then what about a B18c5 in a EK hatch. Or a B18c1 in a EF hatch. Or a B16 in a CRX. Or a B18c5 in a civic wagon (dont laugh, eric rosen had one out last year). What about... i could keep going on and on. But if you do that, then what the hell is the point of H1 anyways? There's such a myriad of combinations of engine and chassis thanks to honda's design philosophies that its a big can of worms to mess with. The only "swap" that makes sense involves tubs that differ only in trim levels and model designations but are otherwise identical.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
you're totally missing the point of what i'm talking about. Since an Si is in H3 and an EK is of the same gen (almost the same chassis) why not just allow a stock b16a2 swap. It's not a big can of worms. If that engine is in a car in H3 then you can only have that engine in your car (all stock trim) and you have to have the same minimum weight as that car and the same brakes/suspension. That's it. Seems simple to me and it doesn't open a big can of worms.
In my opinion the point of H1 is for the big boys that want to go fast, push the envelope of engine/suspension/chassis design and capability and it's obviously going to cost them.
If someone wants to compete in HC and only has an EK with a b16 swap and they don't wanna spend the money to run H1 and don't wanna invest in something else then why not let them compete with what they've got? To an extent of course.
To me it seems simple and might get you some more people interested but if this is really that complicated, doesn't seem to be, then alright. It was just a suggestion and might draw some more competition but if it that's big a deal then just ignore this.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The SCCA update/backdate rule covers motors that were originally had in the same chassis but different trim levels. Nowhere in the SCCA rules can you put a B16A2 in a EK hatch and call it a DSP Civic Si.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I realize this and was only using it as an example. I know you can't do that and the SCCA was never known for making sensible decisions regarding classing anyways. I do like the update/backdate rule and my idea was just expanding upon it's purpose. I realize the SCCA couldn't do this because there are way to many makes of cars out there for them to allow this but since this is just Honda's and the rules makes know the caveats of these chassis I think it makes sense.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And if you dont think a b16 can be *competitive* then get a good driver in one and you'll be suprised. I sure was. </TD></TR></TABLE>
A stock b16 in an EK chassis I doubt. maybe in a lighter chassis and one's that's been built. I don't doubt the potential of a b16 in H1, I think it can be competitive and I love that engine, but not in stock trim in a relatively heavy EK.
By the way, I do agree with you Karl that the P/W and dyno idea is a bad one and I wouldn't have brought that up next. I think that is waaaayyyy to complicated. I was just trying to suggest something that could be simplified and would allow for a wider range of combinations eligible for classes other than H1.
s
Modified by stevel at 12:36 PM 9/1/2003
Then what about a B18c5 in a EK hatch. Or a B18c1 in a EF hatch. Or a B16 in a CRX. Or a B18c5 in a civic wagon (dont laugh, eric rosen had one out last year). What about... i could keep going on and on. But if you do that, then what the hell is the point of H1 anyways? There's such a myriad of combinations of engine and chassis thanks to honda's design philosophies that its a big can of worms to mess with. The only "swap" that makes sense involves tubs that differ only in trim levels and model designations but are otherwise identical.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
you're totally missing the point of what i'm talking about. Since an Si is in H3 and an EK is of the same gen (almost the same chassis) why not just allow a stock b16a2 swap. It's not a big can of worms. If that engine is in a car in H3 then you can only have that engine in your car (all stock trim) and you have to have the same minimum weight as that car and the same brakes/suspension. That's it. Seems simple to me and it doesn't open a big can of worms.
In my opinion the point of H1 is for the big boys that want to go fast, push the envelope of engine/suspension/chassis design and capability and it's obviously going to cost them.
If someone wants to compete in HC and only has an EK with a b16 swap and they don't wanna spend the money to run H1 and don't wanna invest in something else then why not let them compete with what they've got? To an extent of course.
To me it seems simple and might get you some more people interested but if this is really that complicated, doesn't seem to be, then alright. It was just a suggestion and might draw some more competition but if it that's big a deal then just ignore this.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The SCCA update/backdate rule covers motors that were originally had in the same chassis but different trim levels. Nowhere in the SCCA rules can you put a B16A2 in a EK hatch and call it a DSP Civic Si.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I realize this and was only using it as an example. I know you can't do that and the SCCA was never known for making sensible decisions regarding classing anyways. I do like the update/backdate rule and my idea was just expanding upon it's purpose. I realize the SCCA couldn't do this because there are way to many makes of cars out there for them to allow this but since this is just Honda's and the rules makes know the caveats of these chassis I think it makes sense.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And if you dont think a b16 can be *competitive* then get a good driver in one and you'll be suprised. I sure was. </TD></TR></TABLE>
A stock b16 in an EK chassis I doubt. maybe in a lighter chassis and one's that's been built. I don't doubt the potential of a b16 in H1, I think it can be competitive and I love that engine, but not in stock trim in a relatively heavy EK.
By the way, I do agree with you Karl that the P/W and dyno idea is a bad one and I wouldn't have brought that up next. I think that is waaaayyyy to complicated. I was just trying to suggest something that could be simplified and would allow for a wider range of combinations eligible for classes other than H1.
s
Modified by stevel at 12:36 PM 9/1/2003
Rather OG
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,179
Likes: 0
From: Greensboro, NC
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
1999-2000 SI came with a B16A2 motor.
1996-2000 hatchback never came with the above motor.
H1, end of story. By definition, your situation is a hybrid, plain and simple.
Contact NASA national if you'd like to pursue this further.
1996-2000 hatchback never came with the above motor.
H1, end of story. By definition, your situation is a hybrid, plain and simple.
Contact NASA national if you'd like to pursue this further.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (Jason Franza)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jason Franza »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1999-2000 SI came with a B16A2 motor.
1996-2000 hatchback never came with the above motor.
H1, end of story. By definition, your situation is a hybrid, plain and simple.
Contact NASA national if you'd like to pursue this further.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, I know. I've read the rules too and I didn't ask where it WOULD be classed. You're answering a question I didn't even ask. I know what's in the rules. You're totally missing my point. I'm talking about a rules change/addition here. I don't wanna pursue it further. It's not in my interest at this point in time but I just thought it might be a good idea to attract more people to a series that I'm so psyched is now up and running and I would just love to see get bigger. That's all.
s
1996-2000 hatchback never came with the above motor.
H1, end of story. By definition, your situation is a hybrid, plain and simple.
Contact NASA national if you'd like to pursue this further.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, I know. I've read the rules too and I didn't ask where it WOULD be classed. You're answering a question I didn't even ask. I know what's in the rules. You're totally missing my point. I'm talking about a rules change/addition here. I don't wanna pursue it further. It's not in my interest at this point in time but I just thought it might be a good idea to attract more people to a series that I'm so psyched is now up and running and I would just love to see get bigger. That's all.
s
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,840
Likes: 0
From: SE, PA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you're totally missing the point of what I'm talking about. Since an Si is in H3 and an EK is of the same gen (almost the same chassis) why not just allow a stock b16a2 swap. It's not a big can of worms. If that engine is in a car in H3 then you can only have that engine in your car (all stock trim) and you have to have the same minimum weight as that car and the same brakes/suspension. That's it. Seems simple to me and it doesn't open a big can of worms.
In my opinion the point of H1 is for the big boys that want to go fast, push the envelope of engine/suspension/chassis design and capability and it's obviously going to cost them.
If someone wants to compete in HC and only has an EK with a b16 swap and they don't wanna spend the money to run H1 and don't wanna invest in something else then why not let them compete with what they've got? To an extent of course.
To me it seems simple and might get you some more people interested but if this is really that complicated, doesn't seem to be, then alright. It was just a suggestion and might draw some more competition but if it that's big a deal then just ignore this.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I asked about this last year and got the same response, now I realize why. It is just too difficult to enforce. I run a b16 swap in my EK hatch and hopefully will get a chance to run Honda Challenge H1. But I'm not going to wait till I can get 200+ WHP and AP brakes, I'll be a newbie and will need to learn a lot more about how to race before I worry about winning.
Modified by 6ghatch at 7:01 AM 9/2/2003
you're totally missing the point of what I'm talking about. Since an Si is in H3 and an EK is of the same gen (almost the same chassis) why not just allow a stock b16a2 swap. It's not a big can of worms. If that engine is in a car in H3 then you can only have that engine in your car (all stock trim) and you have to have the same minimum weight as that car and the same brakes/suspension. That's it. Seems simple to me and it doesn't open a big can of worms.
In my opinion the point of H1 is for the big boys that want to go fast, push the envelope of engine/suspension/chassis design and capability and it's obviously going to cost them.
If someone wants to compete in HC and only has an EK with a b16 swap and they don't wanna spend the money to run H1 and don't wanna invest in something else then why not let them compete with what they've got? To an extent of course.
To me it seems simple and might get you some more people interested but if this is really that complicated, doesn't seem to be, then alright. It was just a suggestion and might draw some more competition but if it that's big a deal then just ignore this.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I asked about this last year and got the same response, now I realize why. It is just too difficult to enforce. I run a b16 swap in my EK hatch and hopefully will get a chance to run Honda Challenge H1. But I'm not going to wait till I can get 200+ WHP and AP brakes, I'll be a newbie and will need to learn a lot more about how to race before I worry about winning.
Modified by 6ghatch at 7:01 AM 9/2/2003
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In my opinion the point of H1 is for the big boys that want to go fast, push the envelope of engine/suspension/chassis design and capability and it's obviously going to cost them. </TD></TR></TABLE>
They're not pushing the envelope any further than someone in H3 is. The H1 cars are not *that* different. In fact, many of them are less prepared than the H2-H5 cars with the exception of a non-stock engine.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If someone wants to compete in HC and only has an EK with a b16 swap and they don't wanna spend the money to run H1 and don't wanna invest in something else then why not let them compete with what they've got? To an extent of course.</TD></TR></TABLE>
But to what extent? Where do you draw the line? Should you allow the same b16 in a EF shell as long as you have the same minimum weight? A CRX shell? A s800 roadster shell? So you "only" allow them in the EK chassis - then the guys with EG's will say its more or less the same chassis, why cant we run H3 also? Why not a K20A2 (RSX-S motor) in a EP3 hatch to run H2? Who's to say you didnt mstakenly allow a 'ringer' in to one class. And someone builds it, you say "sorry, off to H1 you go!". That will really make someone happy.
You should know that karl gets emails every week regarding this type of thing - "this is why you should change the rules so that my car/car i want to build can be competitive". You have to build a rule book thats going to best for *everyone* and the series as a whole, and more importantly thats going to lend stability to the series long-term.
Just because its the same year car.... so can we allow B16A motors in CRX's? They were made that way in Japan - so what class does that go in? And its no more expensive to run in H1 than it is in H5. The prep may be a bit more expensive because of the motor, but the shells are much cheaper than a H2/H3 car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To me it seems simple and might get you some more people interested but if this is really that complicated, doesn't seem to be, then alright. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well getting people "interested" in the series is one thing. Building a car and running a season or three of road racing requires alot more than just interested people. It takes a load of commitment to build a car and run it. If they were really serious, they'd examine the rulebook and their finances and determine a solution thats best for them.
They're not pushing the envelope any further than someone in H3 is. The H1 cars are not *that* different. In fact, many of them are less prepared than the H2-H5 cars with the exception of a non-stock engine.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If someone wants to compete in HC and only has an EK with a b16 swap and they don't wanna spend the money to run H1 and don't wanna invest in something else then why not let them compete with what they've got? To an extent of course.</TD></TR></TABLE>
But to what extent? Where do you draw the line? Should you allow the same b16 in a EF shell as long as you have the same minimum weight? A CRX shell? A s800 roadster shell? So you "only" allow them in the EK chassis - then the guys with EG's will say its more or less the same chassis, why cant we run H3 also? Why not a K20A2 (RSX-S motor) in a EP3 hatch to run H2? Who's to say you didnt mstakenly allow a 'ringer' in to one class. And someone builds it, you say "sorry, off to H1 you go!". That will really make someone happy.
You should know that karl gets emails every week regarding this type of thing - "this is why you should change the rules so that my car/car i want to build can be competitive". You have to build a rule book thats going to best for *everyone* and the series as a whole, and more importantly thats going to lend stability to the series long-term.
Just because its the same year car.... so can we allow B16A motors in CRX's? They were made that way in Japan - so what class does that go in? And its no more expensive to run in H1 than it is in H5. The prep may be a bit more expensive because of the motor, but the shells are much cheaper than a H2/H3 car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To me it seems simple and might get you some more people interested but if this is really that complicated, doesn't seem to be, then alright. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well getting people "interested" in the series is one thing. Building a car and running a season or three of road racing requires alot more than just interested people. It takes a load of commitment to build a car and run it. If they were really serious, they'd examine the rulebook and their finances and determine a solution thats best for them.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 2
From: Boston, MA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
They're not pushing the envelope any further than someone in H3 is. The H1 cars are not *that* different. In fact, many of them are less prepared than the H2-H5 cars with the exception of a non-stock engine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's in the rules to allow them to with brakes, engine, ECU, etc modifications allowed. From what I've seen from talk from the H1 guys it's not cheap and the correct setup probably takes more time to dial in right because you now have more variables.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But to what extent? Where do you draw the line? Should you allow the same b16 in a EF shell as long as you have the same minimum weight? A CRX shell? A s800 roadster shell? So you "only" allow them in the EK chassis - then the guys with EG's will say its more or less the same chassis, why cant we run H3 also?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know you always have to draw the line somewhere so you just have to figure that out. just list exactly what engine/chassis is allowed and then it will be clear.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You should know that karl gets emails every week regarding this type of thing - "this is why you should change the rules so that my car/car i want to build can be competitive". You have to build a rule book thats going to best for *everyone* and the series as a whole, and more importantly thats going to lend stability to the series long-term.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know he is so why is this going to be any different. I just thought it would be good for more membership is all. If he's hassled now about the rules then what's going to be the difference with this addition.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If they were really serious, they'd examine the rulebook and their finances and determine a solution thats best for them.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, and you know what. I bet a lot of people have done that and since so many people have swaps and would lose too much money if they sold it there solution that's best for them is to not build a car or go to another series. I would be willing to bet a good number of drivers haven't built cars for HC because they have a swap and don't wanna compete in H1. Even if that's 5 people/cars that's a good number if you only have a 30 car field.
They're not pushing the envelope any further than someone in H3 is. The H1 cars are not *that* different. In fact, many of them are less prepared than the H2-H5 cars with the exception of a non-stock engine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's in the rules to allow them to with brakes, engine, ECU, etc modifications allowed. From what I've seen from talk from the H1 guys it's not cheap and the correct setup probably takes more time to dial in right because you now have more variables.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But to what extent? Where do you draw the line? Should you allow the same b16 in a EF shell as long as you have the same minimum weight? A CRX shell? A s800 roadster shell? So you "only" allow them in the EK chassis - then the guys with EG's will say its more or less the same chassis, why cant we run H3 also?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know you always have to draw the line somewhere so you just have to figure that out. just list exactly what engine/chassis is allowed and then it will be clear.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You should know that karl gets emails every week regarding this type of thing - "this is why you should change the rules so that my car/car i want to build can be competitive". You have to build a rule book thats going to best for *everyone* and the series as a whole, and more importantly thats going to lend stability to the series long-term.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know he is so why is this going to be any different. I just thought it would be good for more membership is all. If he's hassled now about the rules then what's going to be the difference with this addition.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If they were really serious, they'd examine the rulebook and their finances and determine a solution thats best for them.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, and you know what. I bet a lot of people have done that and since so many people have swaps and would lose too much money if they sold it there solution that's best for them is to not build a car or go to another series. I would be willing to bet a good number of drivers haven't built cars for HC because they have a swap and don't wanna compete in H1. Even if that's 5 people/cars that's a good number if you only have a 30 car field.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,164
Likes: 0
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
why would u want to swap engines in a car to run in any class lower than H1 when all you have to do is buy a car in it's stock form and race it? just doesn't make sense to me.
and about the post on putting the ITR swap/ 5 lug into the ek hatch running in H2 as long as the engine is left stock? i'm running an '88 civic hatch w/ a STOCK b16... but that doesn't mean i get to run H3, etc.
plain and simple like all other have stated... it's an H1 kar. i would also like to see as many people get drawn to Honda-Challenge as possible, but I don't think this is the way to do it... too much conflict/changes would arise that it would just end up as a big mess.
and about the post on putting the ITR swap/ 5 lug into the ek hatch running in H2 as long as the engine is left stock? i'm running an '88 civic hatch w/ a STOCK b16... but that doesn't mean i get to run H3, etc.
plain and simple like all other have stated... it's an H1 kar. i would also like to see as many people get drawn to Honda-Challenge as possible, but I don't think this is the way to do it... too much conflict/changes would arise that it would just end up as a big mess.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,164
Likes: 0
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah, and you know what. I bet a lot of people have done that and since so many people have swaps and would lose too much money if they sold it there solution that's best for them is to not build a car or go to another series. I would be willing to bet a good number of drivers haven't built cars for HC because they have a swap and don't wanna compete in H1. Even if that's 5 people/cars that's a good number if you only have a 30 car field.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what other class can H1 honda's go to?
let's see... Speed world challenge, USTCC?, SCCA SPU (u want a piece of those baby grands or pierre?
), probably some over in Japan, or none at all.
that's all that i can think of right now... so i'd have to say that no matter what swap you have, if u wanna get out on track and have fun... H1 is the best bet. if you're looking to be competitive... it's gonna cost money either way.
what other class can H1 honda's go to?
let's see... Speed world challenge, USTCC?, SCCA SPU (u want a piece of those baby grands or pierre?
), probably some over in Japan, or none at all.that's all that i can think of right now... so i'd have to say that no matter what swap you have, if u wanna get out on track and have fun... H1 is the best bet. if you're looking to be competitive... it's gonna cost money either way.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (stevel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's in the rules to allow them to with brakes, engine, ECU, etc modifications allowed. From what I've seen from talk from the H1 guys it's not cheap and the correct setup probably takes more time to dial in right because you now have more variables. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Reality check - building a competitive H2-H5 motor is not cheap. If you want to be fast... then a rebuild, .025" overbore and blueprint/balance. Most Hybrid cars i've seen are using stock blocks and heads and are damn fast. H2-H5 cars probably have a bigger issue with brakes since they must remain stock. And, for '04 ECU modifications (hondata) will be allowed for H2-H5.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know you always have to draw the line somewhere so you just have to figure that out. just list exactly what engine/chassis is allowed and then it will be clear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know but the point is no matter which combonations you allow, there are going to be people pissed off and make the same arguments you are now that they didnt allow their swap/combonation.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah, and you know what. I bet a lot of people have done that and since so many people have swaps and would lose too much money if they sold it there solution that's best for them is to not build a car or go to another series. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You bet... which means you dont have any factual representation for that statement. If someone says "i dont want to race because i only have a B16" then thats really an excuse for "well i really cant afford to race now anyways, but i'll say something else". Especially when B20 bottom ends can be had for $500.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would be willing to bet a good number of drivers haven't built cars for HC because they have a swap and don't wanna compete in H1. Even if that's 5 people/cars that's a good number if you only have a 30 car field.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again... willing to bet. And by selling the swap, and building another car they've lost more money than just using their swapped car in H1. Or *gasp* they pick up a stock DX engine for $300 and run H4!
There's alot more keeping people from racing than just what they have on the street as a project car.
Reality check - building a competitive H2-H5 motor is not cheap. If you want to be fast... then a rebuild, .025" overbore and blueprint/balance. Most Hybrid cars i've seen are using stock blocks and heads and are damn fast. H2-H5 cars probably have a bigger issue with brakes since they must remain stock. And, for '04 ECU modifications (hondata) will be allowed for H2-H5.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know you always have to draw the line somewhere so you just have to figure that out. just list exactly what engine/chassis is allowed and then it will be clear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know but the point is no matter which combonations you allow, there are going to be people pissed off and make the same arguments you are now that they didnt allow their swap/combonation.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah, and you know what. I bet a lot of people have done that and since so many people have swaps and would lose too much money if they sold it there solution that's best for them is to not build a car or go to another series. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You bet... which means you dont have any factual representation for that statement. If someone says "i dont want to race because i only have a B16" then thats really an excuse for "well i really cant afford to race now anyways, but i'll say something else". Especially when B20 bottom ends can be had for $500.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would be willing to bet a good number of drivers haven't built cars for HC because they have a swap and don't wanna compete in H1. Even if that's 5 people/cars that's a good number if you only have a 30 car field.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again... willing to bet. And by selling the swap, and building another car they've lost more money than just using their swapped car in H1. Or *gasp* they pick up a stock DX engine for $300 and run H4!
There's alot more keeping people from racing than just what they have on the street as a project car.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,323
Likes: 0
From: Valley Forge, PA, USA
Re: Honda Challenge rules question. Could an EK hatch run in H3? (.RJ)
(cross-posted)
What if the car that swaps in the engine in question has a better chassis? Say with their car, their weight distribution is better than the car that the engine belongs in. Is it fair to make you run against him? No. He is creating a car that didn't exist that could have an unfair advantage over cars that did exist. It could be anything - aerodynamics, weight distribution, chassis rigidity, etc. How do you account for all of that?
Matt
What if the car that swaps in the engine in question has a better chassis? Say with their car, their weight distribution is better than the car that the engine belongs in. Is it fair to make you run against him? No. He is creating a car that didn't exist that could have an unfair advantage over cars that did exist. It could be anything - aerodynamics, weight distribution, chassis rigidity, etc. How do you account for all of that?
Matt