man who locked the "Turbo on roadracing." thread. the original post raised a resonable question. why did ppl read in so much into it? damn self rightous idiots. i really disagree with tyson on the definition of road racing. if is often used to describe the sport. it doesn't have to be wheel 2 wheel perse. Solo I for example, is a none wheel to wheel road racing format where you compete against the clock. is it road racing? YES. it's just like ppl who think they have a comp licnese and done a few w2w they think they're so much better than DE'ers. i know PLENTY of skilled DE drivers who do not race w2w for a wide variety of reasons. the top reason being can't afford it. get over your race license. it doens't mean jack. it just means you're a safe enough driver to go on track in the full race environment.

to answer the guy, turbo engines certainly are well used in all types of road racing. proper engineering needs to be used because of the harsh environment. it is very important as your GSR engine was not properly designed for extended period of forced induction service (heat issues).

in Japan, Top Fuel has a Civic EK that is really fast and kicks lot of RWD car's butt at the Tsukiba circuit.

 

how else do you answer a post like that? its been talked about before and since he wasnt really talking about even using it in racing, why not just ask the forced induction forum?

its not self righteous. its about having a clue on what youre talking about. we can disagree on what is road racing, if it means you can tell your friends youre a road racer if youve just been around the track and never even been in an actual race, but to ask such a clueless question is beyond my patience.

i wanted him to learn what road racing means, and i answered the question. thats why i put my FAQ together. if he doesnt want to do any reading on his own, trying to understand what the rest of the world is talking about, then what more do you expect us to do?

 

Because most of the guys on FI board will probably have no clue of road racing nor the demands it puts on a turbo engine.

He is simply wondering about if a turbo GSR would work well. You guys don't need to make him look bad because he doesn't know how to distinguish between DE and w2w.

Plenty of ppl think I'm a racer because i goto the track all the times. I always tell them I'm just a open track guy. It's far from racing. But to 95% of the people that isn't in the sport, I'm a racer to them.

Road racing has long been used as a generic term for driving on road courses. That's all.

 

GR, you owe me at least an hour of my life back for posting your drivel. I feel compelled to read your nonsense because it makes me laugh, but at the same time I am angry at myself for allowing it to happen. You seem to mean well, but your ego and your other ego seem to get in the way. W2W is different than a DE, I know that you consider them one in the same, but they are different.

AutoX is AutoX
Driver Schools are Drivers Schools
Road Racing is Road Racing
Dirt Track is Dirt Track
Stock Car Racing is Stock Car Racing
karting is karting
drag racing is drag racing

They ALL fall under MOTORSPORTS

When I did DE's and people asked if I raced, I said "no, I do drivers schools and autoX". Then when I decided to go racing I would answer the same question, "Yes, I road race, do club schools and occasionally autocross"

Do you see the difference? You seem to have gotten the term "road racing" and "motorsports" confused.

I have been doing this stuff alot longer than you have. I would much rather be in a road race against someone who only does DE than a seasoned roadracer. Most DE I have been to do not teach things like setting up a pass, true racing lines, rain lines, negotiating traffic, how to out brake someone, lapped traffic and other class etiquette. It is my understanding that you have participated in W2W events to varying degrees of success, so maybe you have a taste of this, I hope you notice a difference.

Does the fact that I have a comp license make me better than some? Yes, it is an experience from which I have learned a great deal. A few things I have learned are: no matter how fast you think you are....there is always going to be someone faster and in motorsports you don't want to be noticed for what you say or do, you want to be noticed what you DON'T say or do (except winning and awesome passing). I think you could take note of that. Does my head swell because of my license? No, because anyone who wants to go racing can do so and they will become a better driver. I encourage them to do so. Are there some really great DRIVERS at DE's? YES there are, LOTS, does that make them great racers, not always.

 

i know exactly what you're saying. not long ago i switch "road racing" section on my page to "motorsports" take a quick peek - http://www.ghettoracer.com/motorsports/

read again, some guy is simply asking how turbo GSR engine would do when driven continulously on track. he wasn't asking about DE or road racing. see https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=599097

if you aren't license holder that thinks non-license holders are any good, then my comment should have not offended you.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does the fact that I have a comp license make me better than some? Yes, it is an experience from which I have learned a great deal. A few things I have learned are: no matter how fast you think you are....there is always going to be someone faster and in motorsports you don't want to be noticed for what you say or do, you want to be noticed what you DON'T say or do (except winning and awesome passing). I think you could take note of that. Does my head swell because of my license? No, because anyone who wants to go racing can do so and they will become a better driver. I encourage them to do so. Are there some really great DRIVERS at DE's? YES there are, LOTS, does that make them great racers, not always.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No argument from me on this paragraph. I agree 100%.

ps, you might not have a swell head but some (I'm not pointing to anyone in particular) do just because they have a comp license.



Modified by GhettoRacer at 1:19 AM 8/23/2003

 

There was nothing in the original question that would lead me to beleive this guy understood what road-racing meant. No mention of the words "autocross", "track", "performance driving education", "cage" or "lapping days".

Who other than NASA, SCCA runs in California (his sig says Upland CA) that allows turbos in road racing?

I'm not bashing the question or the responses, but my first thought was that this guy is asking about driving a FI car on the street or through canyons. I never associated his use of "road racing" to any track or controlled racing environment.

Lisenced competition drivers will have their own paradigm - as will AXers and SOLO 1 guys. But giving the thumbs up to performance driving questions without qualifying the circumstances or the drivers' intentions, is just as questionable...in my book.

And I didn't object to the lock.

 

Why am I replying to this? Oh well, I guess I understand RJ's intent to keep this forum relevant and useful.

So I suggest that a big disclaimer be added to the FAQ about this. Something like this:

"When posting questions regarding car setup and advice, PLEASE be very specific on the car model, event type, and applicable sanctioning bodies. Racing is, first and foremost, about the rules. Threads missing this information may be locked."

Hopefully that isn't already in the FAQ (meaning I didn't do a good job of reading it).

Personally I don't want to waste time opening posts with vague questions. Doesn't everyone else feel that way?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Personally I don't want to waste time opening posts with vague questions. Doesn't everyone else feel that way?</TD></TR></TABLE>

And that is the power of self moderation. This forum doens't move as much as the others... If people don't jump in and reply with smart answers (ie, make assumptions. if one really wants to be helpful, ask some questions _nicely_ first. lots of newbies really want to learn, but just need some good pointers).

"Road Racing/Autocross
Discussion of modifications, tuning, and driving techniques - autocross and road racing."

The forum description isn't exactly clear on the purpose. Let me asking you guys this. Since the forum is titled "road racing and autox"... Does it mean it was never intended to cover DE's?!

Lets try to turn this into a how to make the forum better thread, not yet another pissing contest.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was nothing in the original question that would lead me to beleive this guy understood what road-racing meant. No mention of the words "autocross", "track", "performance driving education", "cage" or "lapping days".[</TD></TR></TABLE>

we could've asked him what he meant by road racing (by his understanding of the definition).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who other than NASA, SCCA runs in California (his sig says Upland CA) that allows turbos in road racing?</TD></TR></TABLE>

if people see World Challenge on TV and wants to do the same, they learn that it is called road racing. if they are serious about getting on the track, they'll have to start with some sort of DE or race school. if they start with DE, it doesn't matter what kind of car they learn with. they can bring just about anything, including turbo'ed cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we could've asked him what he meant by road racing (by his understanding of the definition).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I posted the second before it got locked because I went to edit to fix something and I couldn't. But when he said "i'm not worried about SCCA" that made me wonder if he knew the diff between W2W and DE and everything else.

I also agree with the term road-racing being hard to understand. How many times last year did I get asked by people in the office "so are you racing this weekend?" I got tired of telling them "I'm going to be autocrossing, you know, the thing with cones, the thing I've described to you a hundred times?" or to tell them "well, we're going to the track, but it's not 'racing' remember? Because we don't compete for an over-all finish, we just have fun on the track together at speed." You can imagine their confused looks. So this year when I started w2w and were telling people my first race was coming up and about how excited I was, they all thought I'd been racing the year before too. Very frustrating.

That's why we have to ask questions instead of just bashing everyone that comes in. I asked him if he wasn't "worried about SCCA" then what group or series was he planning on racing in? I guess my response could have been more to the point, like "do you mean racing for competition, or do you mean just getting out to the track for fun and learning?" But, its moot now since it was locked.

I think we just need to have more patience with newbies. Is that so hard? If you don't want to be helpful, can't you just skip the thead and read another one? I'll admit I've not always been 100% helpful, but I've tried more than many I think. If we alienate people with disputes over the terms, and constantly argue about the differences between DE's and W2W, all we do is harm ourselves. Before long, people won't be saying, "man, the top of the Pyramid of Speed is W2W, and I want to do that!".... people instead will be saying "man, those guys in the Comp forum that W2W are ******** with egos, and I'd never want to be like them!"



(disclaimer, Pyramid of Speed is just an example of how people perceive the different forms of racing, I'm not trying to start yet *another* argument about DE vs. Autocross vs. W2W)

 

I gotta agree with GR here. Me too i find this forum has been going downhill lately. A guy wants to know if a turbo will be good on a track. The question is not about it being allowed by the rules. Or whether or not road racing is the same as DE or Solo1 or whatever... The question coulda been answered politely with a reminder to check the rules of whatever series or organization he wants to run with. That is all...

There's been a lot of this crap lately around here it seems...

 

I have been a member of the HT community for quite some time now, but am a "newbie" in terms of AutoXing/RoadRacing (Have only participated in 4 events so far.)

To my understanding this is supposed to be the forum to come to when you have questions about certain aspects of these sports (RR/AutoX). Correct?

Well i myself would rather search for answers anywhere but here. 99% of the time, all i see are elitist attitudes, impatience, and inflamed egos.

There are a select few that realize "everybody had to start somewhere", but again, they seem to be few and far between.

Just an outsiders point of view on your forum.




Modified by JV at 8:33 PM 8/23/2003

 

im sorry. im a jerk. im an *******.

i showed him where he was wrong, i answered the question. i steered him in the right direction to learn. instead of passing over 9 out of 10 threads i dont know where to start to answer, ill pass over 10 out of 10, ill not try to help anyone.

but case in point:

he asked, whats better for road racing, all motor or turbo.
i decide its best for me not to respond, since i dont know much about turbos.

someone tells him theres not many classes according to the rules for road racing a turbo.
he says i dont care about that stuff, i just want to know if its better for road racing or is it just for drag racing.

at that point, it was clear he wasnt on the same understanding as the rest of the forum. its clear he didnt know what road racing is. does he even know road racing is about the track? and if he did, what does "better" mean? so i now decide its time i can give him some help. yeah, im not the nicest person. but the answers were all there. did he even read the answer in my FAQ that directly answers his question?

am i some kind of "elitist"? this is a (competition) autox and road race (and DE) forum. KNOW something about the topic, or have a clue. and if not, read a bit if youre interested. am i arrogant about that? yeah, everyone has to start somewhere.... yeah i started READING all those required reading books before i ever got to the track. i dont say that because i expect everyone to be like me, but im here to talk about the topic on hand. yeah, the general public doesnt have a clue about autox and road racing, but i dont think this forum is for the general public, thats why we have separate forums.

i dont get it, all you lurkers and newbies who never had anything positive to contribute to this forum get to voice up and and make personal attacks saying I (or some of "us") am an ******* and childish? if youre a lurker or newbie, keep it that way. either contribute or shut up, your opinion aint worth **** to me.


Modified by Tyson at 7:55 PM 8/23/2003

 

I'm sorry but I've got to chime in here too. I've been on this forum for a while now. Mostly in the background reading but asking a few questions here and there. Usually, when I do I don't get a lot of help. However, if there's a post about somebody blowing their motor on track then the thread will hit 2 or 3 pages long.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">am i some kind of "elitist"? this is a (competition) autox and road race (and DE) forum. KNOW something about the topic, or have a clue. and if not, read a bit if youre interested. am i arrogant about that? yeah, everyone has to start somewhere.... yeah i started READING all those required reading books before i ever got to the track. i dont say that because i expect everyone to be like me, but im here to talk about the topic on hand. yeah, the general public doesnt have a clue about autox and road racing, but i dont think this forum is for the general public, thats why we have separate forums.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Uhh...yeah, THIS IS THE INTERNET! This is the place people come to research. They don't hit up barnes & noble to find books on racing so they can come online and talk with the "knowledgeable" people. This isn't a forum for those who are involved in motorsports only. It's a forum for those that are involved or are interested in it. Hell, why don't you put a password on the forum or a membership that you can only get after you show your SCCA/NASA/etc. membership card.

There's a lot of good people on this board. There's also a lot of ******** who don't want to help anyone. It's like a middle school bully. Somebody asks a question and you smack them on the head and say "Did you READ?". It's gotten to the point that I don't even bother asking questions on here cause I won't get anything except for (maybe) one response, a link to irrelevant info, someone saying "Do a SEARCH," and maybe a locked topic...

I think Tyson got the title wrong. Forget uptight, some people just need to grow up.

 

I am not a big fan of adding boost.

with a car like an imprezza or eclipse the manufacturer has spent countless hours of R&D to create a car that embodies those charecteristics. Trying to change those inherent properties steals away the soul of the car and creates a car less enjoyable overall

While a turbo will dramatically add power it will also dramatically reduce the life expectancy of a power plant especially when it wan't designed to cope with the heat and stress in the first place.

A car should be the kind you can jump in a literally drive the wheels off. Exactly like the GSR feels stock. While there are obviuosly many ways to enhance these charecteristics, I don't feel that adding boost is beneficial overall. Especially considering a good turbo set up with tunning will run well over 6k with all the trimmings to make it a good road race package including cooling upgrades.

Maybe I've seen to many turbo cars go BOOM BOOM

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A guy wants to know if a turbo will be good on a track. The question is not about it being allowed by the rules. Or whether or not road racing is the same as DE or Solo1 or whatever... The question coulda been answered politely with a reminder to check the rules of whatever series or organization he wants to run with. That is all...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly my point... I'm just saying try to be nice to the guys that are asking Q's. They are trying to learn. You will never find me talk down a new guy just because they are clueless. If they are trying to learn with out attitude, then it's all fine. In that thread the guy wasn't thinking about SCCA racing, that's why he wasn't "worried" about them. In DE's you can run whatever you bring as long as it pass safety tech.

 

You describe the exact things I face. The public don't have a clue. I could be AutoX'ing, w2w, karting, or just doing open track, it's all racing to them. I get tired of explaining, so I just say I'm going to the track and have a ball. I asked if they would like to join me... but of course they'd ask a billion Q's and still don't want to come. Now I don't bother explaining and I just say, if you are interested, come out and see but let me warn you you will be addicted. Description don't do it justice.

 

So, when someone is totally ignorant to the terminology used to describe the various motorsports events available, why not educate them, point them to a useful thread, or keep quiet?

So he said 'road racing' and didn't know what it meant.

This site has so many intelligent and thoughtful people who are willing to discuss great topics and help their fellow enthusiasts out, then the 'other' side of H-T rears its ugly head. It's a shame. A little tolerance goes a long way. And a little joking around never hurt anybody either.

 

i agree with the lock. the thread was just going to get uglier. a vague question followed by an overly defensive rebuttle. "i don't care about (rules) SCCA" ain't a great phrase to use 'round these parts. good work tyson.

go find the "daily driver swaybar" thread. that should be on lock down right soon as well.

nate

 

oh boy... thread in question for quick refrence:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=599097

- the guy who posted the thread probably should spend some time hanging out at a nasa/scca/emra/etc weekend to learn what road racing/time trialing/DE'ing really is.
- the thread had already taken an ugly turn due to the beligerant nature of the original poster
- seems it was more of a hypothetical post raised by him or his buddies and he just wants to know if one is better than the other for whatever reason and has no intentions of getting within 100 miles of a road course.

So it was locked. And i'm locking this one as well, because further discussion of an already weak thread is only (often) worsened by the creation of yet another one.... Problems/flames? The PM button is under my avatar and looks like this ""