can somebody tell which tranny is better for my ls swapped hatch and why it is better and explain instead of saying ls trannys are trash . thanx it would be very helpfull

 

You need to tell us what your gonna do with the car before we can answer your question, but overall the gsr is superior in every category. the ls is better for top end highway pulls, but i wouldn't recommend that

 

Modified by One Bad GeeSeeR at 10:40 PM 8/21/2003

 

the gs-r tranny is geared shorter, soooo yes gs-r

 

i am goin to turbo my ls motor. i am goin to build the block and head before i turbo it but what tranny would be better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by One Bad GeeSeeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> See the ls has taller gears. which imo is better for a turbo setup. soo the turbo can spool longer.

: </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry but the ls vs gsr tranny for boost has been covered many times and your statment is incorrect. The Ls having taller gears only makes acceleration slower and dropping you out of your powerband when you shift. The gsr is quick but not too short and keeps you in a better powerband. Now the ls 5th is better than the gsr for highway racing. So the ultimate turbo tranny woudl be a Gsr w/Quaiffe Lsd and an ls 5th.

Allmotor b16 or ITR if you can afford it.

 

GS-R tranny is better then the LS tranny, FI or NA

 

i agree that gs-r is best for boost, all and all it's significantly shorter than the ls helping acceleration and longer than the b16 and itr preventing wheelspin. gs-r for boost

 

B16 or itr, for everything

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by One Bad GeeSeeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">See the ls has taller gears. which imo is better for a turbo setup. soo the turbo can spool longer.

</TD></TR></TABLE> please stop spreading around false information

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zbower7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">can somebody tell which tranny is better for my ls swapped hatch and why it is better and explain instead of saying ls trannys are trash . thanx it would be very helpfull </TD></TR></TABLE>

Its very simple. The LS's longer gearing doesn't enable it to put as much power to the ground through the concept of torque multiplication. Meaning that the torque that your engine produces is multiplied a certain number (this number is called the absolute gear ratio, and it is the product of the individual gear ratio x final drive ratio) to acheive a higher torque value. Think about how much your car weighs (2000+ pounds)....do you really think that you could get the car moving very fast from a stop by exerting 100-130 lb./ft. of torque? No way....if you're really strong you can probably exert that much force on a wrench with your bare hands.

Take a look at the gear ratios of the LS vs. GSR gear ratios here:
http://www.bseries.net/html/specs/btrannyspecs.php

Remember....
gear ratio x final drive ratio x torque at a given rpm = torque multlication figure to the wheel

So this assumes that you've had your car dyno'd and can pick points on the graph to compare your torque with various gearsets.

Just to give you a basic example: Lets say you have a GSR which is pumping out 110 lb./ft of torque
<u>transmission, 3rd gear ratio x final drive ratio = torque multilication #</u>
GS-R tranny, 1.36*4.4*110= 658 lbs-ft
LS tranny, 1.269*4.266*110= 595 lbs-ft (63 lbs-ft power loss)
Type R tranny, 1.458*4.4*110= 706 lbs-ft (48 lbs-ft power gain)

Notice that the ITR tranny can apply nearly 100 more lbs/ft to the wheels to help accelerate the vehicle in 3rd gear!! Note that the extra power doesn't come "free", you're speed at redline will be lowered when using a shorter gear ratio or larger final drive ratio.

For a longer more detailed explation check out the article on Team-Integra
http://www.team-integra.net/se...D=707



Modified by BlueTeg at 3:35 PM 8/21/2003

 

the early LS cable tranny are 4.400 final drive, so 1st gear, for cable trannys is pretty much the same across the board.

I should post more, because I have some good spreadsheets at work, that graph out the actual wheel torque, using real torque curves from each engine(I spent tons of hours working on this, on the clock, too )

Anyway, what they said is *mostly* right, but not necessarily.

2 things that need to be considered:

Item 1#

The VTEC transmissions are geared with narrow gears, because the powerband is narrower.

Generlaly, torque curves are around the same shape, just moved up or down the rpm range. The higher up, the more horsepower, but also need closer gears. In something like a B16, you got powerband, maybe 5.5k - 8.2k(assuming 8200rpm redline), in an LS, maybe 4.1k-6.8k(assuming 6800rpm redline). Both there, I used a 2700 rpm spread for the torque area. Well, if you look at the case of the B16, the torqueband is about 33% of the rpm range. So at redlien you want youre next shift to drop you maybe 33%. With the LS, the torqueband is still the same number of rpm, but is now 38% of the rpm range. Because its a wider 'relative' band, it can use the longer gears.

Item #2

Since first gear in a cable trans is the same, lets look at second gear. When 2 evenly match cars, one with a LS trans, one with a GSR trans, shift into 2nd gear, the guy with the GSR trans will start to pull. But, because of the shorter gear, he also has to shift into 3rd before the other guy. When GSR guy shifts into 3rd, the guy witht he LS trans is now in 2nd, and pulls on the GSR guy. then he shifts, and the GSR is pulling, then GSR guy shifts, and LS guy is pulling, etc..

So, its not necessarily true that you are always putting more power to the ground. You are shifting into the higher gears earlier, which sometimes causes you to be putting less to the ground, for the same ground speed. Also, because of the lower redline of the LS motor, you may be required to do one more shift on the track, which could add a tenth or two to your times..


Anyway, I'm looking at this, because I'm building a B18A powered EF hatch with a early cable(4.400 FD) LS trans. SO I wanted to see if I should buy a B16 trans and swap over my 5th gear..

A B16 or GSR trans does out more average power to the ground, but it was not a huge different, not enough for me to make the swap. Like average from 0 to 70 mph with the LS was like 960 ft-lbs, and with the GSR it was 985 ft-lbs or so.

I'm doing this for a street car, that maybe I take to the track once or so, to see how it runs, but mainly its just my daily driver. So I'll run what I have, and be happy with my low 5th gear.

There were also some posts on another board with 1/4 times for EG hatchs with B18a/bs... one person did switch from a LS trans to a GSR trans, and made no difference with his times.

Defiantely, a VTEC motor needs a matching trans. The LS gears are designed to be longer, because the powerband is wider. I think you are fine with any trans on there, really..

If you have a later, hydro trans, the moving to a 4.400 fd b16 or GSR trans, or an ITR one will get you more power(I also heard there are 4.266 FD B16 trannys..)..

Me, I'm sticking with my LS trans..

 

This may be just my case, but here are four timeslips from two separate visits to the dragstrip.

Two with the stock LS tranny, and two are after i swapped to a GSR tranny.

LS tranny


GSR tranny


Edit for grammar...






Modified by JV at 12:03 AM 8/22/2003

 

Probably a dumb question but here goes.

My Zex kit is half installed. Do you think my cable Tranny will be alright? I've got a new factory clutch installed.

I'm still a little worried about hitting the juice

 

For those who are unsure whether the LS-&gt;GSR tranny swap is worth it.

Basic 3rd gear comparison:



Ignore the ITR torque curve (that was just for my own reference), but notice the almost 15% gain in power.

 

Again, yes, and no.
3rd vs 3rd there's a 15% gain, but the GSR third lasts less time, and also occurs partly while the LS is in 2nd gear.

Here is a slightly better graph. This uses the same torque curve, for both vehilces. I used a roughly. These numbers are both a little high, because I had no drivetrain loss, but they are both using the same torque numbers, so that doesn't matter.

Anyway, for an LS trans, I use the gears for an early cable trans, which is what I have. (Mine says S1 on the gold sticker)

4.400 Final Drive
1st: 3.166
2nd: 1.857
3rd: 1.259
4th: 0.935
5th: 0.742

For the GSR trans, I used:

4.400 Final Drive
1st: 3.307
2nd: 2.105
3rd: 1.458
4th: 1.107
5th: 0.880

Here's the graph of the torque going to the ground from 0 to 100 mph:



So, yes, the GSR trans puts down more power. in the 0 to 100 mph range, the GSR trans puts down 4% more power to the ground. The GSR trans makes more power in each gear, but also exits gears earlier, which also causes the 4-5 shift to occur before 100mph.

For me, a GSR trans doesn't do me good because its hydraulic. The B16 cable trannys are also closer gears, but aren't quite as low gears, so end up with about 2.5% more power to the ground, only.

I'm just goin got keep my trans, because I already have it, and because I'm building a fun car, not trying to squeeze every tenth out of it.

If you are building for a race car, then you need to be more involved than just GSR vs LS. You need to look at how fast you expect to run the quarter(in MPH) and gear your car accordingly. A lower geared trans isn't going to help if you need to shift from 4th to 5th right at the end of the race. For serious drag, road-race, or Auto-X, you might need to experiment with many different gearboxes & gears/final drives, to find what works best for you.

Anyway, hope thats somehow helpful. I love technical threads like this.