Ooops. So I finally got a real alignment for the first time this year. I found out that I have over 1/2" of toe out up front. Guess that explains my odd tire wear issue. That's a lot of power getting burned up too Let's see how she feels at Lowes.

Warren

 

hehe....

similar thing here. except i had 1/2" toe out on the rear tires instead of the fronts. doh!

nate

 

Umm...how did you accomplish getting off by so much? I'd think 1/2 inch out would look pretty darned obvious just standing back and looking at it?

Roll it around or drive it after the wheels have been off the to settle the car then throw a tape measure on consistant points on the tire at the highest point that you can reach on both sides, realizing that the big number should be at the point 90 degrees from the ground front to rear. If you can only measure part way up the tire becasue of undercar obstructions, you'll have to trim the number down by a percentage of the distance.

Just realized that I never finished posting those pics of my harware store homemade toe guage. I'll try to get that going again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hehe....

similar thing here. except i had 1/2" toe out on the rear tires instead of the fronts. doh!

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>


Hmmm - can you say rotation?

 

It was the whole, "Hmm, the car doesn't feel great. Let's check the alignment... in the paddock..."

Looks flat != flat

We were using roundy round toe plates.

Warren

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ausmith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Hmmm - can you say rotation?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i'd go into details, but i don't want to jack warren's thread.

if you have a baseline, backyard alignments aren't so bad. last year i had my car tossed up on a rack at the end of the season (after multiple "backyard" alignment tweaks), and other then a little more front toe out then i wanted, the numbers were identical left and right with zero steer ahead and thrust angle. it's when you get into having things like camber and ride height changes that everything gets thrown off. that's how i got so much toe out this year, i dumped the car over an inch, figured i had lost some toe out (i always get confused when i look at the car upside down) and adjusted to get it back. i hadn't lost any.

nate

 

a post like this makes me glad to have access to a laser alignment rack anytime i want.

 

Finally, someone realizes that DIY alignments are a good "guesstimate" at best.

I got completely jumped on a BMW forum when I suggested they don't put too much stock in DIY alignments as your cumulative error gets big, and fast when just "eyeballing it" on a ruler. They accused me of "being too stupid to look at a ruler." Bah... I tried to explain to them error propogation and the idea of cumulative error, but just got flames. Oh well - some old BMW guys just don't know any better. Think that after autocrossing for a few years they know everything.

Of course, my last two alignments have been DIY, but hey - what can ya do.

 

ive found longacre toe plates just as accurate as a laser alignment. $60

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive found longacre toe plates just as accurate as a laser alignment. $60</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats what I use, and love them! .. I don't think warren knows how to use mine..

 

I think you have 2 sets. One that's straight and one that's bent

Warren

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Def &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Finally, someone realizes that DIY alignments are a good "guesstimate" at best.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree. Professional and top amateur racers string their cars at the track all the time. If you take your time and work with the right tools and check everything at the end, your results will be good.

I question alignment shops where their racks see 5-10 cars per day everyday. I don't know the specs on that equipment, but I bet they have a decent margin of error built in and that they "go out of whack" eventually. Ever asked an alignment shop the last time they had their equipment calibrated?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Warren &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you have 2 sets. One that's straight and one that's bent </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, and guess which one we gave you on purpose...

 

I knew there was somthing wrong when we had to roll the car back in forth 20 times!!! LOL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ausmith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I disagree. Professional and top amateur racers string their cars at the track all the time. If you take your time and work with the right tools and check everything at the end, your results will be good.

I question alignment shops where their racks see 5-10 cars per day everyday. I don't know the specs on that equipment, but I bet they have a decent margin of error built in and that they "go out of whack" eventually. Ever asked an alignment shop the last time they had their equipment calibrated?</TD></TR></TABLE>

In a race, you don't so much care about the absolute setting of your alignment, but the relative performance. Who cares if your race car has 1/32" more toe-out than you thought, as long as it feels better and is faster - that's all that matters.

On a street car, these small errors add up quick when stringing up a car(which you have to do when aligning the rear wheels to get them even with the centerline of the car).

You can be careful and get it close, but I *GUARANTEE* you that your alignment with a piece of string and a ruler is not "dead on." Your margin of error with toe is at least half as much as the smallest division on your ruler if you are almost super human with your measuring accuracy.

I never said you'd you have wheels pointing off into la-la land when you think they're dead straight, but there are many sources of error in stringing up a car that just can't feasibly be eliminated. Simply put, your DIY aligned wheels are not as dead on as you think.

I also question alot of racks at places like NTB and whatnot - that's why I go to a shop that does calibrate their rack and keep it maintained(they also know a thing or two about alignments).

 

Of the 12 or so tape-measure-for-toe and $50-camber-gauge alignments I have done, every one that has gone to an alignment shop has checked out w/in 1/16" and about 0.2 degrees of toe.

Good enough for me, but then again, I'm learning not to be **** retentive.

I decided alignments are a waste of money (for me!) unless iterative adjustments are needed (ie e30 BMW w/ offset trailing arm bushings)

(I use the same method as CRX Lee for toe. Works great IMHO!)

 

its all in what you want to believe, an actual measurement you can physically see, or a number on a sheet of paper that may or not be as accurate as they say.

 

Isn't it part of the "Warren **** Racing Experience" to have the car out of whack like that?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a post like this makes me glad to have access to a laser alignment rack anytime i want.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Go away.

 

I agree. Good old fashion rulers, fishing line, and a bubble level go a long way in my book. When you put your car on a rack, you have to believe what you can't see. When we get out the strings and stuff doesn't react right, we know there is a problem.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by metalworker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree. Good old fashion rulers, fishing line, and a bubble level go a long way in my book. When you put your car on a rack, you have to believe what you can't see. When we get out the strings and stuff doesn't react right, we know there is a problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>



Ausmith who will never pay $50 again for a crappy alignment

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whitney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">iterative </TD></TR></TABLE>

(prounounced IT-ter-a-teev) is an adjective that means repetitious

i learned a new word today, and i take back all the bad things i said about people from the south (south of new york, that is).

 

Alot of places that do even 'custom' alignments (for an extra charge, no less.. nevermind them using a static weight in the driver's seat) don't tightening things enough, or take the car out for a test drive between adjustments, and the alignment falls out within just a few miles of city driving..
When I was particularly laden with cash, I had two alignments done within 10 days, and the former alignment was off all over the place. The latter alignment is still good; even after months of driving. (at least the cheap place has a warrenty that allows me to 'check' the alignment for free)

 

My question is

What exactly is a professional alignment?

I have my own feelings on this but I'd like to hear some of your suggestions.

 

A lot of the times, the guys doing the alignments don't care. Once is gets in the 'range' they consider it good enough.

Case in point. I just bought a Civic for a commuter. The previous owner proudly let me know that it had an alignment recently. Rear toe l=approx in the middle of the range & r=toe out to the limit of .12. Front toe set up @ the limit of the range of on both sides.