Doug's added a new story.

Poor Doug - responsible adult life has constrained his motorsports.

Not completely though. Lucky us.

http://nsxfiles.com/vara_8_03.htm

Scott, who used to regard Doug as a "role model"...

 

Scott,

I agree. I met Doug at Mid-Ohio in 1998. His flamemobile only had a big Microsoft logo on it at the time, and he hadn't developed a full addiction to the go-fast crack pipe. I really like his Ferrari stories. Who needs to paint flames on your car when it will burn all on its own! He's got some great stories, and a fluid pen!


Modified by descartesfool at 7:20 PM 8/20/2003

 

He's right about the Miata...

There is a better way.

 

I've got a hard on for an issue Doug raises vis the "new" NSX vs Ferrari's.

I think I understand Passion as well as the next guy, but this idea that a car like an Acura, with it's appliance like dependability, lacks "character" or visceral appeal really bothers me.

What the hell is wrong with a consumately competent car. One without any vices. One that does what you ask without a fuss. One that will do it for literally thousands of cycles without complaint.

Maybe I need to drive a late model Ferrari, but can it really be that much more stimulating? Can it? How much harder can I get?

Scott, who see's Df's avatar and wonders...

 

How about if we all stop wasting time with these no torque Integra's and start whupping some *** with a real car.

The new NSX-R----Pinnacle of
Honda's sporting heritage
http://world.honda.com/NSX/

Anyone for right hand drive?

Claude, who see's RR98ITr's avatar and wonders...

 

I took just a minute to scan some of that, and the first thing that came to my mind when I read "A new approach to speed" was that these disgruntled NSX drivers want to see the application of "The old approach to speed" - that being Horsepower. More Horsepower.

Wasting time? I'm not wasting time. I'm wasting money. And the only thing between me and a Real Car is negative dollar signs.

Which brings me to my avatar. Remember how Gomez was always reading the ticker tape? "Consolidated Fuzz" was the issue he seemed to track most frequently. My own success(?) is as mysterious to me now as Gomez's success(?)was to me then. And I'm at least as well understood.

Scott, who would be shocked, honestly shocked, if Doug were to wind up with only a Spec Miata to race someday...the very idea that he could have that much more common sense than the rest of us...hmph...and no evidence at all of it up to this point...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've got a hard on for an issue Doug raises vis the "new" NSX vs Ferrari's.

I think I understand Passion as well as the next guy, but this idea that a car like an Acura, with it's appliance like dependability, lacks "character" or visceral appeal really bothers me.

What the hell is wrong with a consumately competent car. One without any vices. One that does what you ask without a fuss. One that will do it for literally thousands of cycles without complaint.
</TD></TR></TABLE>It depends on what the car is used for; as a fast, reliable, sleek, and exclusive daily driver car the NSX is great.

But on the track, its price:performance ratio is quite a vice. When it came out the NSX was the performance and price equal of its peers; these days the price has kept up with the times but performance has not. Honda has shown it is capable of delivering good performance value, with the S2000 available at 1/3 the price and offering only slightly lower performance.

The NSX is sporting the essentially same bodywork and technology it did in 1991. Aluminum construction and titanium connecting rods are groovy, but not enough to maintain a 12 year hardon.

You've also got to keep in mind what Doug is trying to do: pit Honda's best against the best of Ferrari, Dodge, Porsche, and others, on the track. How much $ would it take to make a brand-new NSX as capable on track as a stock 2 year old Viper, or a 50% cheaper Z06 for that matter?

The NSX used to be a competitor in the circle of elite supercars, it is no longer. What Doug (and I think a lot of other Honda fans) are looking for is an updated version that can lay the smack down on the best from the USA and Europe. What was a knifefight in 1991 has turned to a shootout in '03, and Doug's still trying to do battle with his Henckels...I can understand the frustration there.

 

I can understand that some people are only interested in buying something if it can be perceived to be the ultimate - however arguably.

But by that standard wouldn't all of us club racers be wanting to run Formula Atlantic or GT-1?

From my relatively humble perspective the NSX is a fantastic piece of equipment, and it doesn't bother me that it's not the "best" in every single catagory.

I know that my opinion is irrelevant - I'm not a prospective buyer. But I can appreciate the car for what it is, and overlook what it's not.

Scott, who is starting to see the Miata more clearly now...with every word I write...

 

Somewhat off topic, but:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Over by the LA Airport on Sepulveda Boulevard is a mile long tunnel that goes under the runway. I pictured us blasting through there at 8500 RPMS with the engineers from Japan so they could experience what Schumacher feels when he goes into the tunnel at Monaco.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm glad to see the NSX owners know about this

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've got a hard on for an issue Doug raises vis the "new" NSX vs Ferrari's.

I think I understand Passion as well as the next guy, but this idea that a car like an Acura, with it's appliance like dependability, lacks "character" or visceral appeal really bothers me.

What the hell is wrong with a consumately competent car. One without any vices. One that does what you ask without a fuss. One that will do it for literally thousands of cycles without complaint.

Maybe I need to drive a late model Ferrari, but can it really be that much more stimulating? Can it? How much harder can I get?

Scott, who see's Df's avatar and wonders...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Late model ferraris are good (i.e., 355 , 550 , 360, et. al.), but the ownership experience leaves something to be desired. There's nothing wrong with appliance like reliability, but the notion that cars that are : fickle, tempermental, abnoxioulsy expensive (to own, service and buy), etc. have "character" is so deeply engrained that it's become part of the jargon.

The fact is that ferraris, even today, have a lot of issues. That said, they sound great, look absou-*******-loutly gorgeous, and carry the "aura" of an esteemed pedigree, but that only goes so far. The 360 f1's have accuator problems, a few 99 360's have shown oil cooling problems with a flawed rod design, early 355's had valve guide problems, cracked dashes, melted air vents, etc. etc. etc. And, while not insane, the maintenance adds up: 15k service ~ 2k and the 30k service is ~ 5k , these are 348 and 355 quotes. The 360 with it's access panel is slightly less, usually.

In the face of the new gallardo, and the various assaults from porsche, the 360 is starting to lose some of it's luster (in the bang v. buck realm of "rational consumer spending" -- holy **** that's funny) So, enter, the 360 challange stradale... ferrari's attempt to milk the 360 platform by releasing a stripped , race car for the street 360 to revive what's been a limping pulse. That's not to say that the cars aren't selling, nor does it mean that they're not soughtafter, it's simply to say that people have begun to notice in the 360 what's already been made fact in the NSX; revamping a car will only go so far, and then people lose interest.

With the NSX, honda should have realized in 97 that they were slipping in the face of the competition, and should have either 1. gave the car a bigger motor , or 2. cut the msrp by 1/3, maybe even more.

Frankly, I think honda's out of it's depth here, and they've got to realize that while "less may be more" the majority of the buyers out there aren't all well versed enthusiasts, and that to a lot of them having the newest, most powerful toy for their money is very important, and that new toy better obliterate (on paper) anything in it's price segment.

That said, I'd still take a kaiser silver nsx over a 348 and a 355. Over a 360 though, I'm not so sure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doug's added a new story.

Poor Doug - responsible adult life has constrained his motorsports.

Not completely though. Lucky us.

http://nsxfiles.com/vara_8_03.htm

Scott, who used to regard Doug as a "role model"...</TD></TR></TABLE>


Read and enjoyed the entire article. Am now addicted and reading all past articles.


Nothing more to add.


A.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But on the track, its price:performance ratio is quite a vice. When it came out the NSX was the performance and price equal of its peers; these days the price has kept up with the times but performance has not. Honda has shown it is capable of delivering good performance value, with the S2000 available at 1/3 the price and offering only slightly lower performance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe on the 1/4 mile track but I haven't seen it's track performance suffer on road courses at all. Okay, most of them have some minor bolt-ons and are certainly not stock(what do you expect for 12 year old cars?) but even the early models (the better value) can hold their own.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The NSX is sporting the essentially same bodywork and technology it did in 1991. Aluminum construction and titanium connecting rods are groovy, but not enough to maintain a 12 year hardon.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But it is hard-on material with 400rwhp, right? Supplemental augmentation is available and has proven to be successful. Kinda like a boob job. FYI - Most like the NSX's body style just fine. What qualifies as "timeless classic styling" for Porsche and Ferrai translates to "dated looks" for Honda. Guess everyone has an opinion.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You've also got to keep in mind what Doug is trying to do: pit Honda's best against the best of Ferrari, Dodge, Porsche, and others, on the track. How much $ would it take to make a brand-new NSX as capable on track as a stock 2 year old Viper, or a 50% cheaper Z06 for that matter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mine is a '91 and I regularly lap faster than Vipers, Vettes, and 911TTs. Don't see many F-cars. Mine's certainly not stock but the others aren't either so it's a semi good comparision. And although I can't prove it, I'd think that a NSX-R would compete favorably with a Z06 and a two year old Viper. That said, I wouldn't mind having more hp but would rather have a stiffer suspension, lighter weight, and much MUCH better brakes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The NSX used to be a competitor in the circle of elite supercars, it is no longer. What Doug (and I think a lot of other Honda fans) are looking for is an updated version that can lay the smack down on the best from the USA and Europe. What was a knifefight in 1991 has turned to a shootout in '03, and Doug's still trying to do battle with his Henckels...I can understand the frustration there. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you should be looking at the NSX-R as a viable candidate to "lay the smack down." Given that it's not offered in the US, it's a little difficult to be excited about it though. So I hear what you're saying. A new NSX outside of the R version is actually a pretty tame sports car. Which is not a word, I'm sure, that Honda would like to be associated with it. BUT gimme an early model NSX, throw some big *** binders, some wide wheels, a stiffer suspension, and I'd be more than happy.

 

I have to agree with Scott. Honda has shown what they are capable of with the new NSX Type R. As is the original NSX, this new re-incarnation is a marvel of engineering. I have owned a 93 NSX for 10 years and never cease to revel at its design. I tracked it for several years but I decided this year to give it a rest and trash my ITR by putting some go-fast parts on it.

The NSX-R was chosen as EVO magazine's Car Of The Year, even though they weren't selling it in England at the time of the selection. In the article, they tested it against last year's COTY, the Pagani Zonda 12 cylinder, and they said the new NSX-R was a better car even though the Zonda has about 600 hp. All this is due to Honda’s overall concept of the complete, pure driving machine. Take a look at the technical description on Honda's web site of what they have done with the car. They started of course by lightening the car. They list every weight change they made. They stiffened bushings in the suspension, changed the brakes and suspension (springs and dampers). They stiffened the chassis. They got Bridgestone to come up with a new tire, as Yokohama and others had done for the original one. As for the engine, they felt all it needed was blueprinting, via individual hand balancing, to make it really sing. They put some cool looking carbon fibre parts on it. And cool these parts are, because they used them to transform what was a great car of the nineties into an integrated track attack machine for the 2000’s. These carbon fibre parts produce real live downforce, in a finely metered ratio, with the downforce front to rear distribution matching the mass distribution of the car. They even managed to do this without increasing the drag. Now that is marvelous engineering. The effect of every aero part they put on the car is listed as well on their site. Any engineering student should bookmark Honda’s site and keep it as a reference for what defines the sports car. It would be my dream to get all those parts and turn my old 93 (which runs like a dream and has only had tire and oil changes in ten years) into a new NSR-R. $$$$. I have been to many NSXPO events, and you get a hundred NSX’s running on track for a couple of days, with not a single break-down. Have you ever been to a Ferrari event. Half the cars break and go home on their trailers. The owners think it is good if you can get a few clean hours of fun without any smoke or oil puddles. I have driven the daylights out of my NSX at the track and it has never broken.

When Gordon Murray began the design of the McLaren F1, the company looked in detail at all the supercars available, and he came to the conclusion that the NSX was the ne plus ultra of cars, and got one for himself. He drove it for 2 years while he was designing the F1 to never forget it as reference. Honda was even going to make the engine for the F1 until they backed out of Formula One. There are cars that are faster and many have more horsepower, but none are as refined. I drove in a modified Z-06 Corvette at Road America, and it was fast, but somewhat of a crude beast in comparison. The Corvette is also deemed by Consumer Reports survey of 1/2 million readers to be one of the most un-reliable cars in North America. An enviable record.

As for the engineering of the other cars, you should have a look personally and make your own decision. My mechanic had a 348 Ferrari on the hoist. From the outside it looked marvelous, and it sounded great. But from underneath it looked like a bad kit-car (It was not a kit car but a real Ferrari). Welds on the chassis looked like they were made by some student who'd failed his first welding course. The whole thing from underneath looked like a mess. A few beautiful pieces in a garden of weeds. It took my mechanic 1.5 hrs to tighten the stupid belts due to have to move so much stuff around. If you want to see design work at its best, look at an NSX from under a hoist. You will be amazed. The 348 and the NSX were from the same vintage of design, the late 80's. When comparing the Ferrari to the NSX, it looks like they were made on different planets. Plus an NSX can be pretty damn fast if modified competently. A good friend of mine was driving his at a PCA event in the most advanced run group for a one hour Enduro, and no one was able to pass him, and there was a lot of fancy Porsche’s in the group. All he had on his 91 NSX are headers and exhaust, Tein RA coilovers and some Toyo RA-1’s on the stock 91 15” and 16” wheels, plus stock calipers and disks with Hawk pads.

But you will never get 700 hp from it. It was designed like a scalpel, for people who appreciate finesse (as a coincidence, that’s lift to drag ratio in French). I think it is the ultimate representation of what Honda is all about. You can keep your Corvette's and Vipers, and your oil-leaking and burning Ferrari's (just look through the NSX files for some really good stories on what a piece of unreliable junk a Ferrari can be) and go with all the mega-horsepower stuff, while I will just keep wanting to have that most modern of designs with a fully operational aero package, without even a big-*** wing on the back. Yes the Ferrari’s are exciting, but I can drive my NSX everyday. If you’ve never driven one, make an effort to try it out, you will be rewarded.

 

It hasn't suffered per se, until you compare its performance to its contemporaries. Chevrolet has raised the bar with the Z06; for half the price you get a car with 115 more horsepower, much more torque, and truly world-class handling and brakes. Sure, it may not have the pristine build quality and high-class interior, but that doesn't really matter out on track.


I don't think there's an individual NSX owner on the planet that has done more to "augment" his car than Doug, and he's the progenitor of this. Even with the very best chassis and aero modifications at the hands of Erik Messley, engine and brake mods by Comptech, 3lb. carbon-fiber doors and other extensive lightening, the car still is just barely a match for John Dearing's mostly-stock Viper GTS, given equal tires.

FWIW I love the looks of the NSX as well, the early silver with black top ones being my favorite.

I hope you've been doing this long enough to see the obvious fallacy here. Sure, car A may be able to lap faster than car B, but without knowing the skills of each driver, this tells us absolutely nothing about the relative capability of the cars.

Indeed, a moot point, the car not being available here. But used Dodge Viper ACRs are, as are the new Competition Coupes, and given equal tires either one of those cars would eat an NSX-R for lunch. As would a Z06 with 40k in mods...

I'm not saying the NSX isn't a fantastic car, it is. But there's a card game going on, and Honda folded about 5 years ago. It'd be nice to see them get back in the elite game with a car built to challenge the world's best in the under $150k range.

 

Last semester interning I read every single one of his stories. I am so happy there is a new one.

Does anyone know of a similar site for good reading?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree. I met Doug at Mid-Ohio in 1998. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You were at NSXPO '98 too? That was a great time....


Matt

 

All that and much more! And yet I've only seen a Z06 w/ slicks lap a second faster on a 1.8 10 turn track. On slicks. Autocross is another story though.


Is Dearing's car really mostly stock? Even so, hp can make up for a multitude of sins. Mucho to Dearing!

Indeed. A silver with black and ivory interior is the best. With Monaco blue and tan interior a very close second.

I don't feel like qualifying myself but I will say, yeah, I've been doing this long enough. Long enough to know that bench racing sucks and I'd rather be out on the track. I say these things from experience - which for me counts more than blah blah blah over the net.

You'd think. But I have no experience with the NSX-R. However, I was impressed by it's performance in a Best Motoring video. I remember thinking that "maybe Honda knows what they're doing after all." If I remember correctly, a new Mucrielago just edged it out on the straight. And I think Evo judged it the car of the year.

I feel ya' dog. And I'm certainly not saying that the NSX is at the top of the heap. It could certainly use more hp. But it is much better on the track then some of it's magazine paper qualifications would indicate. I'd more than happy to give you a ride...

 

Sometime today I had some random thoughts on this stuff and I thought I'd bring them up here.

BULLSHIT - BULLSHIT - BULLSHIT!

What? What's Bullshit?

I'll tell you.

The idea that someone who "wants" an NSX won't buy one because it's not powerful enough.

Who buys what? And why do they buy it?

Who is it that is on any given day going to buy whatever has the most power, the lowest cd, the most whatever? Surely this is a small minority in this market.

People are going to follow foremost their loyalty, their passion, their prejudice.

Is there a Tifosi who's going to choose something other than a Ferrari just because it has more power or a higher top speed? I think not.

Is there someone who truly appreciates and is aligned with Honda's philosophy on the NSX who's going to buy a less sophisticated machine on account of its greater horsepower? I doubt it.

Doug appears to me to be expressing his changing priorities - typical of a pyramid climber. I'm sure it's not his fault - the GFC made him do it.

I hate - HATE - the idea of blindly following sales numbers. The NSX, and so many cars of it's type, is an expression. A work of art. The product of soul.

Look at a very different company - Morgan. Now there is steadfastness. They are who they are. They do what they do. Do you want one? (Of course you don't - you're not deranged - but do you get my point? The people that want one get one.)

When the makers of great cars forget why they do what they do, and start driving spreadsheets, they lose their souls, and deprive our souls of what they yearn for. And ultimately they produce something less than great.

I know. What would it hurt if the NSX was powered into more viable contention with the supercar elite? Nothing I suppose, but that would be a different car. What then of the great car they've been making. And what of the people who buy them. Do they want to buy the new and improved model? And if they don't?

Cars like the NSX don't lack soul or personality. They just have more sublime character, that sells itself very softly to those sensitive enough to listen and feel.

Scott, who has some troubles with the "always more" imperative...sometimes enough is just right...course, I don't even want an NSX...too much car...I love my ITR...wish it had a little more power though...

 

So often you see references to Honda 'falling behind' or 'being backwards'.

Personally, I don't care to compare the NSX with all the other cars it is normally compared with. Why? Because, at least to ME (that's all that counts to me anyways as far as my sentiments towards certain cars), the NSX is more than just a $80K+ 'supercar'. ...and if Honda ever ditched the 'philosophy' of the NSX and sold their soul to the V8 Devil (or maybe The overpowered, underdampened/unsuspensioned Devil), I'd be very disconcerted. Very unhappy. Suddenly I'd feel as if Honda was hostily taken over by someone like Toyota.

My point, I think, is that we all love the NSX for certain reasons: some because of the overall feel, some for its uniqueness, some for looks, etc. But no one buys an NSX who is only interested in gross hp/tq figures and flashy but useless body styles.

I personally hope Honda never attempts to be like other manufacturers. It doesn't appear as if Lamborghini or Ferrari have changed their forte, Dodge has always been making superpower, overweight boats, etc. Companies evolve, and Honda's high-end 'super' car has evolved into something very unique - which is why it is very unfair to compare the NSX to just about everything else. Why pull back the reigns now and 'conform' in order to get sales?? The car already has a very loyal following, a cult following? No different than any other unique high performance car.

Honda does it their way - and still manages to gain acclaim for the NSX-R and NSX. When has honda ever built a car specifically to compete with other cars already established on the market? I can't remember. I also doubt we'll see a 450hp NSX or a Honda Evo/STi.

Sure, if you race wheel-to-wheel, I'm sure the NSX has its disadvantages, evident by watching Doug chase Dearing down lap after lap, only to get totally blown away where??, on a straightaway. But I highly doubt Honda will do anything revolutionary to the next generation NSX... maybe just some sort of accelerated (good word here, huh?) evolution.