I am considering the Mugen 26mm rear bar to dial out a hint of understeer, but I am afraid that the bar may be too much with the stock front bar and I may push the balance to the other-side of neutral (too much oversteer).

My spring rates are currently 10k front and 8k rear. One option I have is to swap the springs front to rear, but I'm thinking that a bigger rar bar may be a better solution.

Does anybody have the mugen bar with the stock front bar? What are your impressions of the balance of you car and what are your spring rates? Are you autocrossing with the mugen bar?

Any other opinions suggestions?

 

with 10/8...that would explain the understeer.

if you want to "dial" it out, imo a 24mm would do it..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Soup **** &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with 10/8...that would explain the understeer.

if you want to "dial" it out, imo a 24mm would do it..

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is what I am thinking, but is there a 24mm bar anywhere to be had?

 

I run no front bar, 26mm rear, and 12kg/mm all around...It's just a matter of adjusting the driving style.

I would NOT, however, recommend that setting for the street

As for autocrossing, I've had the stock ITR front bar, and the mugen bar at a wet autocross and the car was very neutral, unless I did something silly. But once again, that will depend on one's driving style.

Also the rear toe setting will play a role in how the car behaves, try to run zero toe in the back and some toe out in the front before going any further....it might just make enough of a difference.

Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Does anybody have the mugen bar with the stock front bar? What are your impressions of the balance of you car and what are your spring rates? Are you autocrossing with the mugen bar?

Any other opinions suggestions?</TD></TR></TABLE>

depends on driving style. i drove with the mugen 26mm rear bar for 2 seasons, and was loving it. every one's car/setup/driving style is different, so what may work for me may not necissarily work for you. if i were you, i'd give it a shot. imho, if you just swap on the 26mm rear mugen bar with your current setup, the car will be completely drivable, with no extreme oversteer, unless of course you brake in the middle of a corner/ or brake too deep into a corner. but, then again, a stock itr will spin if you do that also. let us know your thoughts when you get the bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also the rear toe setting will play a role in how the car behaves, try to run zero toe in the back and some toe out in the front before going any further....it might just make enough of a difference.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Already have those alignment settings...

 

have you messed with your rear camber?

try to make it 0

edit...yes, I'd say go for the Mugen bar. And also try using your throttle control more (if you don't already). The "dynamic balance" of the car is based mostly on throttle input.

 

Right now I am running 8f/10r with the Mugen 26mm rear bar and the handling is awesome!!! The balance is great with a nuetral handling car. If provoked, you can get it to oversteer, but it really is progressive and easily catchable. You do have to respect it, and do not do anything stuid such as lifting in the middle of a corner. I was running 400/450 before with a 23mm bar and I still found it to understeer too much. Now, with the new setup, I can get on the power quite a bit earlier than before and the car just pulls through the corner. I love it!!!!

If you have experience, either many autocrosses or track days, I would highly recommed this setup, but I do not believe it is for a beginner. It just leaves less margin for error.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you messed with your rear camber?

try to make it 0

edit...yes, I'd say go for the Mugen bar. And also try using your throttle control more (if you don't already). The "dynamic balance" of the car is based mostly on throttle input.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have played with rear camber. My rear camber is set to about -1.3* (front is -2.3*) right now. and yes, I'm using throttle modulation...

I guess I will just give it a try. I wonder what the difference in handling balance will be between a 10kf/8kr car with the 26mm rear bar and a 8kf/10kr car with a 23mm rear bar.....

 

Running the 10/8 setup is really handicapping the car. I tried that initially and found the car to push badly near the limit. If "feels" nice as the transitional reponse is quicker, but it is ultimately slower. I think you'll do fine if you switch the spring rates and run higher rear rates. With the addition of the Mugen bar, it will be awesome.

 

I am sort of against inducing over/under steer with roll bars. I'd rather set the car up with a set of bars and then adjust under/oversteer with spring rates and alignment settings. Roll bars take out some of the independence of the suspension by tying both sides of the suspension together.

Instead of swapping, why don't you think about getting some 10K or 12K springs for the rear?

For my race car, I am starting off with 12K/10K with stock bars. When I get better, I may go to a 14K rear or smaller front bar or no front bar or whatever.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flux &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is what I am thinking, but is there a 24mm bar anywhere to be had?</TD></TR></TABLE>

spoon makes a 24mm rear bar

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am sort of against inducing over/under steer with roll bars. I'd rather set the car up with a set of bars and then adjust under/oversteer with spring rates and alignment settings. Roll bars take out some of the independence of the suspension by tying both sides of the suspension together.

Instead of swapping, why don't you think about getting some 10K or 12K springs for the rear?

For my race car, I am starting off with 12K/10K with stock bars. When I get better, I may go to a 14K rear or smaller front bar or no front bar or whatever.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I did think about going to 12k in the rear, but I'm worried that 10k/12k may be too stiff - not from a comfort standpoint, but I think that you can get to a point where springs will be too stiff and will begin working against the dynamics/balance/grip of the car... but I don't know where that point is yet.

 

I agree with David, as I'm currently running a 14k/16k setup after progressing from a 12k/8k setup. I've retained the stock 22mm rear bar, along with the stock front. The car feels REALLY good with this setup. Of course, your driving style/preferences will be a major factor as well. I prefer a "balanced setup", but tend to lean on the side of rotation as opposed to push.

If you want some really good input from someone that knows what they're talking about, contact "CRX Lee" on the board. He's a Koni representative, and can offer you some sound advice.

Good luck.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am sort of against inducing over/under steer with roll bars. I'd rather set the car up with a set of bars and then adjust under/oversteer with spring rates and alignment settings. Roll bars take out some of the independence of the suspension by tying both sides of the suspension together.

Instead of swapping, why don't you think about getting some 10K or 12K springs for the rear?

For my race car, I am starting off with 12K/10K with stock bars. When I get better, I may go to a 14K rear or smaller front bar or no front bar or whatever.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good points David - maybe I will pick up an extra set of springs and see how that feels. So now I need to figure out do I go with 10k/10k or with 10k/12k spring rates...

 

Goto the roadracing board, they have a spring swap thread. Right now my suspension will come with 12K/8K. I bought a set of 10K which I will run in the rear. I am hoping I can trade my 8K springs for a set of 12K or 14K for the future.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=553330

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

spoon makes a 24mm rear bar </TD></TR></TABLE>

So does Mugen King doesn'stock them or the Front 26mm bar because its not a popular item as most judt use the 26mm rear.

 

Jonathan, get a pair of 12k springs for the rear, if that doesn't do it for you I'll find you a 23mm Rear Sway bar and I think you'll be golden

 

If you decide on swapping spring rates, I wouldn't go 10/10, but at least 10/12 as others suggested. I've been running 450F and 500R Ground Controls on my GSR with a 22mm ITR rear bar and getting understeer. I think my non-adjustable revalved Bilsteins have something to do with it though.

Anyway, I called GC this week to inquire about going with stiffer rear spring rates, and the advice I was given was that swapping springs by 50lb increments won't do as much to help with rotation as would tweaking/changing the rear swaybar. He suggested getting a bigger or adjustable one. (And also told me to call Comptech, but unfortunately their swaybar is already 22mm AFAIK).

I'm looking into getting adjustable endlinks and see what happens. I also may try getting heim joints to make adjustable endlinks. Someone in the RR forum did this. Neuspeed also uses these in their 19mm adjustable sway bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jonathan, get a pair of 12k springs for the rear, if that doesn't do it for you I'll find you a 23mm Rear Sway bar and I think you'll be golden </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks Mike, but I already have the 23mm rear bar...
12k rear springs may be what is needed...

 

I have 10K f&r springs w/ stock front, 26mm rear bar. There is no oversteer on this setup in the four track days I've run it. As a matter of fact, it understeers

yshi - who wants 12K rears but not sure if he's willing to accept a ride that's any firmer than now

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You're talking about your EG H1 car, or an ITR like the original poster?

That trunk hanging out behind the ITR changes the handling dynamics quite a bit compared to the EG, if that's what you're talking about.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm quite aware of that, George, and nowhere am I comparing the two cars, I was simply stating that it is drivable, even with no front bar. Handling dynamics, I believe, play a much lesser role than individual driving style will when it comes to decisions/adjustments like this. What may be an acceptable level of oversteer/understeer/dynamic transition to me may not be acceptable for someone else. Which is why/what I posted in the first place...


...but thanks for making me all defensive about trying to give someone some advice...and no, I don't think the difference between the EG chassis and DC2 chassis is a large one when it comes to the handling behavior...having owned both and driven both (granted I am only racing one)

Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you messed with your rear camber?

try to make it 0
</TD></TR></TABLE>

he needs more grip up front , not less grip in the rear.

stiffer rear springs will plant the front nicely.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> And also try using your throttle control more (if you don't already). The "dynamic balance" of the car is based mostly on throttle input.</TD></TR></TABLE>

um , yeah.

thats something that really needs to be learned on a track , not exit ramps.

 

smaller front bar = a lot cheaper than a m00gen rear bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
now it's just time for some cornerweighting (once I get rid of the Kirk bar?) and a new alignment. Ed</TD></TR></TABLE>

I got scales Yo , I'll hook it up cheap