i have personally seen one on an itr. it looks sweet. anyone used one the the eg

i think speedware.com is the page

 

You will soon see a bunch of posts saying harness bars are unsafe and you are dumb for even thinking about using one for AutoX or track use.

Put on the flame proof suit, and search for "harness bar" in the archived topics of this forum. There should be 20+ threads of people before you getting the flame.

 

Harness guide bars are perfectly safe when they are used properly. The problem is that too many people think "proper use" includes mounting the harness to the guide bar. These things do have a legit use, and they make great cam mounts, as mentioned before. Personally, it's much easier to just use the cage harness bar that is sufficient for mounting.

 

I use mine the right way, no harnesses here.



-Victor

 

tvrsir: The problem with these things is that no one crash-tests them the way the government requires car makers to test seatbelts. So you really have little idea how strong it is and if it won't rip out should you come to an abrupt halt.
-Adam

 

Why you would use a $350-$400 bar for a camera mount is beyond me. I've seen a ton of the kind that attach to the headrest posts that work fine for a whole lot less money.

Might as well just buy a rollbar for a little bit more and have both a rollbar and harness guide / camera mounting bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 1) NASA of VA does not permit the use of "race belts" w/o the use of a roll bar (for rollover protection). This does not directly address the use of a "harness guide bar" like those shown and discussed herein, however things like this would most likely be used to either properly or improperly mount such harnesses in a car. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ed - while NASA-VA does not encourage the use of harness belts w/o a rollbar or cage, there is nothing in the CCR that prevents it. I see it every weekend, in alot of instructor cars. And the drivers think they are invincible and never go off and that its 100% safer than stock 3-points.

 

i hav a 96-00 speedware harness bar in my 94 civic hatch WITH 5 point harness. i do not track the car anymore, so i removed the rollbar in favor of something lighter. the car is basically turning into a purpose built autocrosser, only being driven on the street to and from events. again, i do not use the car on the big tracks anymore. flame away if you must, but i feel the harness bar with harnesses is fine for this application.


edit: i ran outside and snapped a pic. again, I do not think it is wise to do hpde's or time trials with just a harness bar but depending on the application, it could work fine.


Modified by rodney at 5:30 PM 8/10/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Which is pretty much what I've argued in the past, though not having a NASA CCR of my own it was necessary to rely on your heresay interpretation/enforcement of "the rules", and everyone else's ridicule.
That being said I'd like to lay this subject to rest once and for all. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I was under the impression in the past as well, and not without reason. However, i brought it up at an event and was corrected on it.

At the same time... its still a bad idea.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think "students" should keep in mind the difference between Driver Education on the track (HPDE) and NASA Roadracing! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Have you been to a NASA group 1 or group 2 school lately? Most of the students i've seen have no desire to race. Some do, but its entirely not the majority.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone doing 10-11/10ths of what they're capable of and has a major FUBAR pretty much got what they deserved (sad to say).
Maybe that explains why many of the pics of flat-topped cars were BMW's in general and M3's in particular (gold chain crowd ... in my opinion, for the most part).</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can have the same **** ups at 6/10ths. You never no. One of the biggest contributing factors to the M3/325 crowd having a disproportionate amount of wrecks with novice students is that they are confidence inspring, easy to drive and very fast. And they will bite back if you **** up... and generally, its at high speed.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Furthermore, I "still think it's a bad idea" for NASA to have race groups and HPDE students on the same weekends,
especially when it seems some of the "instructors" tend to push their "students" to go faster than they may be ready (or want to, or are capable of) going. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, you ought to sit in on the classroom sessions for group 1/2 students. The emphasis is so far from going fast and pushing yourself its not even worth mentioning. Now... if the instructor feels the student can go faster then they can push them harder, then they can. But for me, i wont do that if the student cannot be consistent and smooth to start with - because adding speed into that situation is a hand gernade, and you never forget that its your *** in the passenger seat if they hit something, and i would feel responsible if there were an incident and I was in the car.

but as a rule, nasa does not allow racers to instruct and race on the same weekend.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But back to the subject of harness guide bars and belts,
I feel a bit more able to apply driving inputs (steering and braking) when I don't also have to support my self while cornering or braking! JMHO Ed</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have used them for autocross, and its much more violent inside the cockpit than road courses. For me, that risk is acceptable.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Uhhh ... Yeah!
That's where/why I've formed most of these opinoins!
And it's not the classroom that counts, it's what the students (esp. group 1 and 2) do on the track .... like three wide into turns and not appropriately giving passing signals!
Furthermore, I believe HPDE's should stress car control and having fun/getting comfortable in the car at speed, rather than becoming a training ground for NASA's race groups. FWIW Ed</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ahh ed not to brig up an old topic... but didn;'t you do the HPDE at hyperfest... that was run by BSR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Uhhh ... Yeah!
That's where/why I've formed most of these opinoins!</TD></TR></TABLE>

In the past 2 years? In the VA region? Funny, i've been to nearly every event in the past 2+ years and i havent seen any of this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And it's not the classroom that counts, it's what the students (esp. group 1 and 2) do on the track that counts.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Whats taught in the classroom will have a direct effect on the student's behavior on track. How the instructor handles the weekend and how they set up goals for the students will have an effect also. Dan doesnt ask the students in classroom when they come off track "so, how many cars did you roll last session?"

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Furthermore, I believe HPDE's should stress car control and having fun/getting comfortable in the car at speed, rather than becoming a training ground for NASA's race groups. FWIW Ed</TD></TR></TABLE>

They arent a training ground, although NASA does provide that opportunity should the students want to persue it. Most are very intimdated by racing, even more so than coming out to the track the first time, in terms of the commitment, speed and $$$ involved.

 

For autocross purposes I don't see an issue with using it. Seems like a lot of dead weight when you could get away with just a tight lap belt, and I'm not sure about legality, but the chance of a rollover at an autocross is pretty slim.

Of course, you never know...

 

First off, the guy is in Chicago. Who cares what NASA, VA's rules are. Some of you guys are very short sited when someone asks a question. The world doesn't revolve around NASA and Honda-Challenge. Sorry to flame, but it gets annoying.

I've used a Speedware Harness Bar in autocross for a number of years. I bought it used from a friend. Personally, I wouldn't fork out the dough for a new one, I'd rather get a cage at the retail price. I do not use the bar and harnesses on the track or street.

I do have the harnesses connected directly to the bar. That's the recommendation that Speedware gives out. The tubing and welds are just as good as a roll bar, and the bar attaches to the stock belt mounts. Therefore, I feel it's strong enough to keep me secure in an autocross crash.

Harness bars are legal in SCCA autocross classes as long as they don't serve any other purpose. Please read your rule book for whatever your competing in, though. SCCA has specific definitions of what a roll bar, cage and harness bar are.

I have pics at my web site.

http://www.schmiechen.com/harnessbar.lasso

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
2) Travis' statement that they are perfectly safe when used "properly" (in my understanding), means that the harness "guide" bar is used to make sure that the belts go over the driver and passenger's sholders at a safe/appropriate angle, and that the harness belts being "guided" by the bar are to be attached/secured to the rear seat belt mounting points (and not to the guide bar itself).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, this is essentially what I meant. I have seen cars in which the shoulder straps are securely mounted to the floor of the hatch (either to the OEM seatbelt mounting points or with back-up plates) and the straps go through a guide bar before going through the seat. Around this whole contraption is a roll bar without a harness bar. I guess this is the intended use of a harness guide bar, although it seems that a simple roll bar WITH a harness bar is much easier, cheaper, and legal for more racing applications. Still, it makes the point that there is more than one way to safely mount a harness and still have rollover protection.