Best tuning device and ecu for Toda Spec B's???? Your opinions please.
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I am planning to add spec b's to my R in the near future. I need to know what to do in terms of an ecu upgrade to increase the revlimiter and what fuel computer/VTEC controller to purchase. Since I don't have much dyno access my proirities are on a setup that will be fairly easy to use and won't cause any unwanted hassle. Also need advice on good fuel pressure regulator. Thanks in advance.
Oh, I frogot. How do you think the Mugen ECU would do with Spec B's. Just wondering.
[Modified by ActiveAero, 11:39 AM 8/9/2001]
Oh, I frogot. How do you think the Mugen ECU would do with Spec B's. Just wondering.
[Modified by ActiveAero, 11:39 AM 8/9/2001]
Don't use the Mugen ECU with TODA cams, you'll lose power. You'll make more power with the stock ECU and TODA cams. Get the V-AFC or a custom chip.
In order to get you up and running your best bet is to get the "generic" B spec program from Dan at Godspeed, when you have access to a dyno for tuning the A'PEXi VAFC would be the piece to use...Fuel Pressure regulator, the most commonly used ones are the B&M(cheaper) which requires you to hack your stock unit, or the AEM(more expensive) which is a direct replacement.
Austin
Austin
Go with a Power FC and Commander, No matter what you do down the road it can adapt to your needs
$1350 and in stock
$1350 and in stock
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You dont need to get a "custom program". Make sure you have a header that flows enough air along with a Carsound or highflow cat and decent exhaust (r medallion). VAFC is a must, or as Mike said, Power FC is better, topped by a DFI system. Then, tuning, tuning, and tuning. Make sure you go somewhere that knows what they are doing, too. If you get stuck, there are plenty on this board that have Spec B experience. Good luck.
I was running 13.1 @ 103mph last year with spec B's...mugen program...vafc and a fuel pressure riser among other things. just wanted to say that only because of the mugen statement.
I have ECU programs suitable your need but I needed your dynoplot with wide band O2 then I can have a 80-90% (accuracy) for your application.
SGT <---------- thats all u need :~) and maybe VAFC, or SFC... and if u have the money Hondata(or whatever it is) or the Power FC...
Bryan
Bryan
damn all this sounds like it's costing wayyyy too much $$$
if I don't have $$$ for vtec contoller, fuel regulator, ecu, & all this other stuff,
is it even worth it to dump some toda b's & some cam gears in my car without all
these other mods that go with it?
what can i expect whp wise?
thanks
if I don't have $$$ for vtec contoller, fuel regulator, ecu, & all this other stuff,
is it even worth it to dump some toda b's & some cam gears in my car without all
these other mods that go with it?
what can i expect whp wise?
thanks
If you have money.. get a full engine management like a Motec, Power FC, Autronics etc...
If your on a budget, get a Unichip or VAFC & ITC. Unichip is cheaper than a VAFC and a ITC together. But it's better to have a full engine management. Any simple mods in future can be adjusted straight from the ECU to get gains!
If your on a budget, get a Unichip or VAFC & ITC. Unichip is cheaper than a VAFC and a ITC together. But it's better to have a full engine management. Any simple mods in future can be adjusted straight from the ECU to get gains!
You can run the Bs on a stock ITR block and Stock ITR ECU and still make decent power with a V-AFC. A fully programable or reprogramed ECU would be more beneficial, but not necessary. Stock redline is fine with Bs. Have seen just over 191 whp on stock ECU and V-AFC with spec Bs. The regulator, with the Bs, is not a must, unless you are running a test pipe. If you run a cat, then you will have plenty of fuel.
Jason
Jason
VTEC loves ignition timming. VAFC doesn't have ignition timming. Only fuel and compare it the VAFC to the Power FC, the fuel points in the revs is soo much better with the Power FC. Fine tune!
While I totally agree that a stand alone engine management or reprogramed ECU will work best, on a budget, the V-AFC and adjust the timing at the distributor can net some decent gains till you can afford to go to the next level.
Jason
Jason
A very very good bit of advice from the folks at simple digital systems which I agree with wholeheartedly and relates to FSTASNTZ's comments
---------------
Other Good FAQ's
http://www.hondata.com/techroms.html
http://www.hondata.com/ecucomparison.html
Bottomline: if you do go with a reprogram wait until you are done all your major air and fuel mods...no sense in getting a program done and then getting new cams or bigger injectors afterwards...and
If you do get an ECU reprogram, have it done on your car on a dyno, custom.....no mail order best guess chips.....
cheers
[Modified by Michael Delaney, 6:22 AM 8/13/2001]
from sdsefi.com Tech/FAQ section
The first reason is that on most naturally aspirated engines operating on pump fuel, the <U>only</U> way to achieve tangible power gains is by increasing airflow through the engine. Chips cannot do this therefore they cannot make much difference in power output. Chip re-programmers can richen the mixture slightly at full throttle and advance the ignition timing slightly perhaps but this would be at the expense of lowering the factory safety factors for detonation and emissions. The absolute maximum gain in this instance would be on the order of 5% and could be as little as 0%. Most independent tests that I have seen on performance chips for naturally aspirated engines have indeed shown minimal or no gains in acceleration. Some were slower than the factory chip.
Chips for use in factory stock turbocharged applications can increase power substantially in some cases by raising the boost pressure. This again reduces the factory detonation limits and you risk engine damage. Without increasing fuel octane, you are asking for trouble especially if your engine does not have a knock sensor.
Finally, we have chip companies doing "custom" chips for modified engines. What does this involve? This is a technically sound modification only if your engine has the same mechanical mods as the motor on their dyno that the chip is being developed for. If your cams, heads, turbo, exhaust, intercooler, injectors, throttle body or fuel are different, the chip will not be correct for your engine. A chip made for an engine slightly different from yours will be slightly wrong under some conditions. In some cases, poor driveability and performance are the result.
The only way to get good results on a modified engine with different mods from the base engine is to take <U> your</U> vehicle to the tuners facility and get a <U>true custom chip burnt for your engine.</U> This must be done on a chassis dyno then tested on the road also for driveabilty faults which often don't show up on the dyno. This will cost more.
Here is some advice when buying a performance chip:
Before buying, do acceleration testing with a stopwatch, Vericom or at the strip.
Get the chip maker to guarantee the performance gain in writing and make him understand that you will return the chip to him if the chip does not work as claimed. If emission compliance is a concern, ask if their chip will pass the test and get it in writing.
Follow all of the instructions provided by the chip maker when installing it.
Stick to reputable companies. Some people in the chip industry really don't know what they are doing. Talk to some people first who have used a certain chip and see if they are satisfied.
Test your car to be sure that you got what you paid for. This is all good advice when buying any aftermarket devices such as ignition wires, ignition products, oil or fuel additives etc. which advertise a performance gain. If it doesn't do what it is advertised to do, you just got hosed and with some chips costing $500, this is something that you should not put up with.
If all of this doesn't sound too good to you, the alternative is a programmable engine management system. These allow you to tune your engine yourself. This can be good and bad. The same things apply as above. If you don't have a fairly thorough understanding of the system, engines and tuning plus a dose of patience, DON'T buy one of these. Understand that you will have to program all of the values to make the engine start, warm up, cruise, accelerate and run at full power. This can entail entering hundreds of points in most cases and you will require either a dyno or a long deserted road plus some indication of mixture strength to properly tune such a system. These systems are great for the knowledgeable person and a nightmare for the lay person.
Remember, both the chip that you buy or the chip in your programmable ECU must have the proper values entered for your engine to run properly. The main advantage of user programmable systems is that they can be quickly changed if a new mod is done or if not quite right whereas the factory type chip must be changed or sent back to be redone, sometimes, several times at great cost.
If you are contemplating a strictly race situation, don't bother with the factory ECU or chips at all. These were not designed for performance use and you will usually not get the kind of power required with factory hardware. This is when a programmable system is a must.
When considering buying a programmable system, here are a few tips:
Discuss your goals and needs with the tech people selling the system. Make sure that the system will do what you require it to do. Don't expect the impossible- you can't expect a 400hp, 4 cylinder street car to have factory driveability, fuel economy, emission compliance, a smooth idle or long life on pump fuel. If you do, you are a nut and no one will talk to you. There is a reason why there are no factory cars like this driving around your neighborhood.
Removing the factory system and installing a stand alone system can be a lot of work. What hardware, skill and tools will you require to install the system? Can you handle it or do you know someone who can? What factory options will you lose when removing the factory ECU?
If emission legality is a concern, find out if their system is legal and if it will likely pass in your area when properly programmed. Many systems are not legal for street use and many manufacturers will not guarantee emission compliance because they cannot control the programming.
Find out how easy the unit is to program and if you can handle it. If it is difficult to use, either don't buy it or find a place where you can go to have it properly tuned.
Make sure that the company has good, accessible tech support, you may need it.
You are responsible if you program the system too lean and melt your engine, don't blame the system maker. If the engine runs like crap, you are probably asking the system to do something that it was not designed for or have not programmed it correctly. This is your problem now.
Read, understand and follow the manufacturers instructions. LISTEN. It will save you a lot of time. Remember, that the people who design and build this stuff likely know a hell of a lot more than you do about it. If all of this discourages you, sell the present car and simply buy a faster one, you will probably be happier in the end.
R.F.
The first reason is that on most naturally aspirated engines operating on pump fuel, the <U>only</U> way to achieve tangible power gains is by increasing airflow through the engine. Chips cannot do this therefore they cannot make much difference in power output. Chip re-programmers can richen the mixture slightly at full throttle and advance the ignition timing slightly perhaps but this would be at the expense of lowering the factory safety factors for detonation and emissions. The absolute maximum gain in this instance would be on the order of 5% and could be as little as 0%. Most independent tests that I have seen on performance chips for naturally aspirated engines have indeed shown minimal or no gains in acceleration. Some were slower than the factory chip.
Chips for use in factory stock turbocharged applications can increase power substantially in some cases by raising the boost pressure. This again reduces the factory detonation limits and you risk engine damage. Without increasing fuel octane, you are asking for trouble especially if your engine does not have a knock sensor.
Finally, we have chip companies doing "custom" chips for modified engines. What does this involve? This is a technically sound modification only if your engine has the same mechanical mods as the motor on their dyno that the chip is being developed for. If your cams, heads, turbo, exhaust, intercooler, injectors, throttle body or fuel are different, the chip will not be correct for your engine. A chip made for an engine slightly different from yours will be slightly wrong under some conditions. In some cases, poor driveability and performance are the result.
The only way to get good results on a modified engine with different mods from the base engine is to take <U> your</U> vehicle to the tuners facility and get a <U>true custom chip burnt for your engine.</U> This must be done on a chassis dyno then tested on the road also for driveabilty faults which often don't show up on the dyno. This will cost more.
Here is some advice when buying a performance chip:
Before buying, do acceleration testing with a stopwatch, Vericom or at the strip.
Get the chip maker to guarantee the performance gain in writing and make him understand that you will return the chip to him if the chip does not work as claimed. If emission compliance is a concern, ask if their chip will pass the test and get it in writing.
Follow all of the instructions provided by the chip maker when installing it.
Stick to reputable companies. Some people in the chip industry really don't know what they are doing. Talk to some people first who have used a certain chip and see if they are satisfied.
Test your car to be sure that you got what you paid for. This is all good advice when buying any aftermarket devices such as ignition wires, ignition products, oil or fuel additives etc. which advertise a performance gain. If it doesn't do what it is advertised to do, you just got hosed and with some chips costing $500, this is something that you should not put up with.
If all of this doesn't sound too good to you, the alternative is a programmable engine management system. These allow you to tune your engine yourself. This can be good and bad. The same things apply as above. If you don't have a fairly thorough understanding of the system, engines and tuning plus a dose of patience, DON'T buy one of these. Understand that you will have to program all of the values to make the engine start, warm up, cruise, accelerate and run at full power. This can entail entering hundreds of points in most cases and you will require either a dyno or a long deserted road plus some indication of mixture strength to properly tune such a system. These systems are great for the knowledgeable person and a nightmare for the lay person.
Remember, both the chip that you buy or the chip in your programmable ECU must have the proper values entered for your engine to run properly. The main advantage of user programmable systems is that they can be quickly changed if a new mod is done or if not quite right whereas the factory type chip must be changed or sent back to be redone, sometimes, several times at great cost.
If you are contemplating a strictly race situation, don't bother with the factory ECU or chips at all. These were not designed for performance use and you will usually not get the kind of power required with factory hardware. This is when a programmable system is a must.
When considering buying a programmable system, here are a few tips:
Discuss your goals and needs with the tech people selling the system. Make sure that the system will do what you require it to do. Don't expect the impossible- you can't expect a 400hp, 4 cylinder street car to have factory driveability, fuel economy, emission compliance, a smooth idle or long life on pump fuel. If you do, you are a nut and no one will talk to you. There is a reason why there are no factory cars like this driving around your neighborhood.
Removing the factory system and installing a stand alone system can be a lot of work. What hardware, skill and tools will you require to install the system? Can you handle it or do you know someone who can? What factory options will you lose when removing the factory ECU?
If emission legality is a concern, find out if their system is legal and if it will likely pass in your area when properly programmed. Many systems are not legal for street use and many manufacturers will not guarantee emission compliance because they cannot control the programming.
Find out how easy the unit is to program and if you can handle it. If it is difficult to use, either don't buy it or find a place where you can go to have it properly tuned.
Make sure that the company has good, accessible tech support, you may need it.
You are responsible if you program the system too lean and melt your engine, don't blame the system maker. If the engine runs like crap, you are probably asking the system to do something that it was not designed for or have not programmed it correctly. This is your problem now.
Read, understand and follow the manufacturers instructions. LISTEN. It will save you a lot of time. Remember, that the people who design and build this stuff likely know a hell of a lot more than you do about it. If all of this discourages you, sell the present car and simply buy a faster one, you will probably be happier in the end.
R.F.
Other Good FAQ's
http://www.hondata.com/techroms.html
http://www.hondata.com/ecucomparison.html
Bottomline: if you do go with a reprogram wait until you are done all your major air and fuel mods...no sense in getting a program done and then getting new cams or bigger injectors afterwards...and
If you do get an ECU reprogram, have it done on your car on a dyno, custom.....no mail order best guess chips.....
cheers
[Modified by Michael Delaney, 6:22 AM 8/13/2001]
Sorry but I really have to disagree with you on this one. I'm not looking to argue. The Hondata Stage 4 looks awefully tempting.
As an Aside and general comment : I love the oneliners for advice...Get Product A...how about a rationale guys?
My pre-emptive apologies to Mike and Dan . I know the PowerFC is a very good piece of electronics.
But....
1. The Power FC is $1300.
2. We all agree that you need to tune your own car on the dyno with a wideband O2 sensor. You need the flexibility to be able to re-program / tune as many times as you like without breaking the bank and have someone else burning a new chip and a hole in your pocket (Trust me, I've been there) . You need enough control to vary the fuel map, ignition map, VTEC, and redline. The Power FC is sophisticated enough to fullfill these criteria.
However, with the Hondata system already out on the market it has the advantage that many people in a group can pool resources and buy the program /chip burner. They then can burn as many chips as they like for $25/each. Hondata has good tech support and a users chat board. I think Frank Lin from the g-speed.com site runs it. So from a cost perspective you can really get the best of all worlds. With the Power FC it's made for 1 car and 1 person eats the cost.
I guess where the PowerFC may come in as an advantage is in terms of speed of processing for full race applications where the ECU can't handle the required tasks fast enough.
Hopefully Mike or Dan can elaborate. I know Dan goes to Yoshio and has met instances where the ECU reprogramming couldn't handle the new modification added on andthe PowerFC could. I don't know many of us who are at that level of tuning yet.
Please jump in for opinions, comments, suggestions.
cheers
As an Aside and general comment : I love the oneliners for advice...Get Product A...how about a rationale guys?
My pre-emptive apologies to Mike and Dan . I know the PowerFC is a very good piece of electronics.
But....
1. The Power FC is $1300.
2. We all agree that you need to tune your own car on the dyno with a wideband O2 sensor. You need the flexibility to be able to re-program / tune as many times as you like without breaking the bank and have someone else burning a new chip and a hole in your pocket (Trust me, I've been there) . You need enough control to vary the fuel map, ignition map, VTEC, and redline. The Power FC is sophisticated enough to fullfill these criteria.
However, with the Hondata system already out on the market it has the advantage that many people in a group can pool resources and buy the program /chip burner. They then can burn as many chips as they like for $25/each. Hondata has good tech support and a users chat board. I think Frank Lin from the g-speed.com site runs it. So from a cost perspective you can really get the best of all worlds. With the Power FC it's made for 1 car and 1 person eats the cost.
I guess where the PowerFC may come in as an advantage is in terms of speed of processing for full race applications where the ECU can't handle the required tasks fast enough.
Hopefully Mike or Dan can elaborate. I know Dan goes to Yoshio and has met instances where the ECU reprogramming couldn't handle the new modification added on andthe PowerFC could. I don't know many of us who are at that level of tuning yet.
Please jump in for opinions, comments, suggestions.
cheers
The one thing I would give props to the FC for is on the fly tuning. If you run the Hondata and are at the track, running rich or lean, you either need to run thru the emmulator, burn a new chip, or have a V-AFC wired in to adjust with.
With the Power FC, you can just go in and adjust the settings.
Which is better? Still hard to say, I have used them both so far. I will agree that with customer and tech support in the US, the Hondata looks very good. If you have a Power FC, there are limited resources to turn to. Even the biggest distributors for APEXi in the US have limited knowledge and experience with the FC.
Jason
With the Power FC, you can just go in and adjust the settings.
Which is better? Still hard to say, I have used them both so far. I will agree that with customer and tech support in the US, the Hondata looks very good. If you have a Power FC, there are limited resources to turn to. Even the biggest distributors for APEXi in the US have limited knowledge and experience with the FC.
Jason
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