I've got a 94 civic hatch, suspension techniques sway bars front and rear, Carbing stage II front strut brace, Tokiko 5 way adj, Kirk 4 pt (soon to be 6), 450s on the corners, foamed chassis, lexan rear windows- I have the worst time with the *** end of the car coming around. I've tried to soften the front up a bit, by removing the sway bar- which seemed to help- but the car felt loose to me. Kind of wanted to plow. I'm really looking for more of a balanced feel to the car, instead of the unstable butt balance. Any thoughts on how to correct this?

 

first step, clarify the problem. "loose" and "plow" are never used to define the same handling characteristic.

second step, minimize variables. particularly the nut behind the wheel.

third step, give more information. what kind of racing? what kind of tires? what kind of alignment? what kind of experience?

nate

bah, screw all that and spend about a week searching the archives. it's all been covered before, for every chassis type out there.

 

the info that I did find in a search wasn't super helpful... I currently race autoxand oval track/hpde. Been doing this for about 3 years now. I've made the cross over in this car from street to race, and have been focusing on what to do to get it to work for me. I've mainly just raced in stock set ups. I've ran a gamut of tyres on this car and had pretty much the same results. Advan, Kuhmo, BFG, and Falken. The Kuhmo's helped alot.. but that's besides the point. I'll just remove the front sway and upgrade the shock/spring combo to help I think.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why are you running 450 (on the springs) all around?
that's just what was on the car when I got it... didn't really need to change them until now.
What are your shock settings? level 3 front/5 rear

Do you have a roll bar or any additional rear bracing? Yes Kirk 4 pt, st rear sway

WHich "sway" or anti-roll bar diameters are you running? I believe 22f/21r</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Sounds like you've got too much oversteer? If so, taking out the front sway bar is only going to make the problem worse.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by advanracing62 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....I have the worst time with the *** end of the car coming around. I've tried to soften the front up a bit, by removing the sway bar- which seemed to help- but the car felt loose to me. </TD></TR></TABLE>
this....
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kind of wanted to plow.</TD></TR></TABLE>
...and this contradict themselves. softening the front swaybar would have made the first statement worse, or the last statement better. i get the feeling you don't know the difference between over-steer and under-steer when you say stuff like that. is this still with the weapon-r sleeves, or have you bought something worth more then the raw materials it's made from?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I'm really looking for more of a balanced feel to the car, instead of the unstable butt balance. Any thoughts on how to correct this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i don't know what an "unstable butt balance" feels like and i don't want to. sounds rather innappropriate to me.

you still haven't really described what is happening in a manner that is helpful. so far all i've read is a bunch of gibberish. for one, you left out the fact that this car is gutted and b18 powered.

give us some _real_ details. what phase of the corner? what are you doing with the steering, gas, and brake? does it happen at one speed more then another? what is your ride height? how about your alignment? age of suspension bushings? type of suspension bushings? tire pressures? is the problem worse with one type of tire then another? what happens in the rain?

there are a _lot_ of things that can make a car loose (the back end wants to come around) or tight (ie "push", as in the damn thing wants to go straight even though you have the wheel turned). the easiest one to fix is the one that sits in the drivers seat. lifting or braking at corner entry can make a car loose. overdriving the corner entry and/or accelerating to hard/early can make the same car push. again, this is all stuff we've covered in depth in many different threads. do some more homework, the answer is out there.

nate

 

Other things to mess with before buying new crap would be tire pressures, rear swaybar adjustment, ,alignment, and shock settings. Give everybody a clearer explanation of the problem, and I am sure they will try to help with these issues. Or just use them as new keywords for searching

 

I had this issue with a B16 in the car. I've got a CVT in there now.. but the issue still lingers. I'll come into the corner and not let off the fuel, the car swings its *** out like a dog after a flea, sending me into a slight drift. I usually correct by letting off the throttle and then back on. It doesn't really matter what type of corner this is in. Oval track led to a meeting with the wall. SCCA leads to dead cones. Either way I'm not happy. Realistically I'm just going to play with everything and see what is going to work best for this car. Thanks to those that helped.. I appreciate it.
CVT=CRVTEC


Modified by advanracing62 at 2:42 PM 8/5/2003

 

bah, i'm lost. judging purely by setup, the only thing needing fixing is the driver.

i'm done

nate

 

You're contradicting yourself in every post.

Warren

 

My guess is that disconnecting the front bar made the front end soft in roll so it "flops" over into turns. I think you need a lot more front spring to run without the front bar.

The back end is probably from the shocks. The KYB and Tokiko are basically for stock or near stock spring rates. The higher settings needed to give enough rebound for the stiffer springs makes for way too much compression damping. The rear end basically is sitting on the shock damping not the springs or sway bar, so it is really stiff on turn in. Try running the rear shocks softer and see what that does. If the ride height is lower than stock, you may also be running into the bumpstops on either end. That will make for big changes in what the suspension is doing.

 

Problem - Car oversteers:

Solutions - Stiffer front springs, bigger front bar, softer rear springs, smaller rear bar.


Problem- Car understeers:

Solutions- Softer front springs , smaller front bar, stiffer rear springs, bigger rear bar.

 

[QUOTE=advanracing62]I'll come into the corner and not let off the fuel, the car swings its *** out like a dog after a flea, sending me into a slight drift. I usually correct by letting off the throttle and then back on.

QUOTE]

Judging from this post, I think you need to read up on the physics of what makes a car work. Not that I'm any expert whatsoever, but lifting off the throttle when your already oversteering is usually a fairly bad idea.

 

Geratol- that works.. thanks!
As stated in earlier posts, I have driven mainly stock chassis cars for autox so this is the first car that I have drived that could be set up. Sorry if I'm not 100% on terms. I'm just trying to learn and not yet part of the good ol boys club... for those of you that take the time to help- Thanks! for the others... well.......

 

get a known good/decent driver to drive your car and give his thoughts. chances are it is the driver's inputs that's upsetting the car...

in autox it is very easy to overdrive the car, and you can certainly go from understeer to oversteer in a run and vice versa.

 

Points to ponder:
You tell us that much of your experience is oval track/HPDE. Reads more oval than road course. As to the setup-I would definitely look at replacing both the springs and shocks. Many of us roadrace types use different rates front and rear. Some like stiffer front-I like stiffer rear. The issue with the sway bars is discussed almost daily. I can only visualize your chassis being foamed-this is something to remove if you are getting really serious about SCCA or NASA type events. I cannot say if the windows are legal for autox-get the SOLO rules from SCCA for that.
As to your terminology-it is indeed more oval and you need to do some reading about autocross and road course driving. Then go and find a school/HPDE and do it. You will find that with practice that you will become better at each element and chassis tuning will also be easier.
We are off to Pocono for an HPDE this weekend-more open track on the "long course" where both the banking of the oval and the flatter infield road course are used in 2 different configurations. I rarely need to correct during turn in. It is more about braking before the turn and getting back on the throttle. Then again I am not as agressive as others which means I am not at the limit. Another thing for me is that this is a new car and one must learn what it can do to go faster each session.

Good luck to you