hi there, new user, experienced autocrosser with a few question for a possible purchase:

i'm looking at a '91 Si for a dedicated autocross car. i'm not too familiar with the good brands that are particular to honda, so i'm looking for some insight as to some good things to get for that particular model/year to get it competitive in HS.

when i get it, what should i replace immediately (until i get a full motor rebuild)?

dampers? is koni the rule? does KYB, SPAX, etc make good adjustables for this application?

bushings/swaybars? what are my alternatives?

ignition?

wheels? what's going to give me bang for the buck?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by S2D2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what's going to give me bang for the buck?</TD></TR></TABLE>

evolution school

hoosiers

shocks

brake pads/SS lines (since the car is older than a 92).

RJ

 

what brands of dampers are tops for this applications?

what brake lines should i be looking at?

like i said, i have done a considerable amount of autocrossing but the civic is a slightly new realm for me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by S2D2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what brands of dampers are tops for this applications?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Koni sport is a great option, especially on stock springs. Can be re-valved later and converted to double-adjustable if you want.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what brake lines should i be looking at?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've used goodridge and earl's. No complaints. Carbotech Kelate Metallic (green) pads kick *** for autocross.

Also alignment. Maybe a bigger front sway bar with the stock suspension. Evolution also offers a Phase 3 setup school.

 

Didn't they just loosen up the rules to allow double adjustable shocks in stock class?
(or was it remote resevoir?)

Bah. Maybe I'm imagining it.

To answer your question, how big is your budget? If it were me, I'd start out with Single adj. Koni's and leave it at that for a while.
Actually, I did this, and am still working on adjusting them to where I like them. I'll get it eventually.

 

having just recently been able to offer advice for a local driver who is setting up this very same car i'll tell you what has worked for him. btw, this car is fast enough now that he has beaten last years HS national champ twice and been _very_ close to him several times.

first off, get the thing in good mechanical condition. the car i helped on needed new trailing arm bushings (stock honda is the only way to go) and various other wear items.

alignment. mild toe out in the front, zero toe in the rear.

shocks: DA koni's. kyb's might as well be monroe econo-savers for how well they compare to koni's. DA's are allowed in stock. the new stock class shock rule limits external adjustment to 2. ie, no triple external adjustable shocks.

tires: 225/50/14 hoosiers front, 205/55/14 hoosiers rear. don't beleive me? try 2 seconds faster then 225's all around on the first run with the stagger setup. they do fit on those tiny stock wheels too.

bigger front bar: the one i've helped with has not done this yet. it desperately needs it though. body roll and camber loss own this thing.

judging from your questions, it seems like you don't quite know what is allowed in stock and what isn't. i suggest you get your rulebook before you spend any money on the car.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">judging from your questions, it seems like you don't quite know what is allowed in stock and what isn't. i suggest you get your rulebook before you spend any money on the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not really, since all of the things he asked about were directly applicable to stock class rules.

 

thanks RJ. the reason i want to get an Si is the fact that it's light, cheap to maintain and i want to start setting up my ZX3 for road track use (i'm running HS now and winning).

i know what i can *do* to the car, i want to know what i can do it *with*.

i'm looking at about $2000 to upgrade whatever's on the car when i buy it, including consumables. i'm not anywhere near a national level driver so i don't need to go to the limit, if i can save some money where the difference is slight or limited really only by my skill, i'd just assume go there (like KYB vs Koni).

thanks for the advice guys! this is getting me much better response than clubSi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by S2D2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the advice guys! this is getting me much better response than clubSi </TD></TR></TABLE>

understatement of the year

 

Good advice here.

KYBs are a step up front stock, but Konis are FAR superior to them. I've driven both, and I currently run Koni Yellows on my Bavarian Money Pit if that tells you anything.

If you're going to spend ~$100 for a decent shock, I don't see what's so hard about spending ~$150 for a much better shock. DA's are nice, but I don't know if they're worth the *large* price increase over OTS Yellows. I've never driven them, but dang, DAs for BMWs at least cost over $2k easy!

I'd go through the whole car and replace EVERY bushing you can stomach with a brand new factory one. You'll be amazed at how much better the car will feel after you let your suspension operate like it was originally meant to.

Then Koni Yellows, pads + lines(I personally like Axxis Ultimates for autocross, although your car might not be porky enough to bring them up to temp just autocrossing - I surely don't have a problem with this ), alignment then bigger front swaybar as others are saying. Give the front as much grip as you can, then go as stiff as you can up there with a front bar and still get the car to rotate, but limit body roll.

 

I am surprised many members are suggesting a STIFFER front bar. I have always found on this chassis that you want the SOFTEST front bar you can get away with. I myself run without a front bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MightyMouseTech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am surprised many members are suggesting a STIFFER front bar. I have always found on this chassis that you want the SOFTEST front bar you can get away with. I myself run without a front bar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Same here, HS may be a little different than CSP, but when I started out, everyone told me to go stock front, bigger rear. I went bigger all the way around and ended up with massive understeer until I set the rear bar as stiff as it would go, the rear shocks almost as stiff as they would go, and the front shocks almost as soft as they would go. (see my bio for the full setup)

 

It's to maximize the grip of at least one end of the car.
Minimize body roll, reduce camber loss.

Then as Solo-x stated, a staggered tire set up will reduce the rear grip.

And hopeful that equals a fast, balanced car.

 

The answer to your question on roll bar sizes lies behind the wheel

I myself have neither front nor rear and though i have some other rather unique suspension components I fid this to a much nicer set up than the eibach F/R set up I had tried a few months back which was recommended to me.

It's mostly a question of driving style. Which only a school like Evolution can help you establish and perfect.

Until that point most other things are irrelevant

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mythos EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The answer to your question on roll bar sizes lies behind the wheel

I myself have neither front nor rear and though i have some other rather unique suspension components I fid this to a much nicer set up than the eibach F/R set up I had tried a few months back which was recommended to me.

It's mostly a question of driving style. Which only a school like Evolution can help you establish and perfect.

Until that point most other things are irrelevant</TD></TR></TABLE>

THANKYOU!! Many people have a hard time believing me when I tell them that only the car/driver combination is fast. You can have a fast car combined with a fast driver and they are not matched...end result...not fast. Also just slapping on a bunch-o-parts does not make the car fast either. I just love to hearing people say "I just installed an unobtanium grapple grommit whatever, and my car is slower....howcome?"

/me beats head against wall..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MightyMouseTech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just love to hearing people say "I just installed an unobtanium grapple grommit whatever, and my car is slower....howcome?"
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's an easy one... the first generation of grapple grommits wern't originally designed for Hondas. They wern't designed with stand the stresses of a honda suspension with its effective motion ratios.

 

I'd heard that the grapple grommit gives positive camber gain. I think you have to install them upside down to work properly in a Honda.