I don't understand this. I set the TDC to the long triangle on the left side of the pulley. I made the assumption that this was the pointer without checking it. Anyways, I lined up everything when I assembled it. Idle is around 500, jump the wire and go through the proper steps to check timing. When I go to adjust my timing with the light, its way off. Not even close. It about an inch off, which is about a tooth. The light is basically showing TDC at the pointer. So I recheck the timing marks, and they are perfect. What's going on? I don't understand. I can advance the distributor all the way, but its still not really close.

My engine setup is:
stock 94 GSR except p30 pistons and Skunk2 manifold

The car runs, and it seems fine except it looks like its burning a lot of fuel. I haven't checked that to verify it yet. I've also notice some other P30 parts on the engine when I was assembling it, like the cam gears. Maybe the cams are even p30. I don't know if it means anything. Could I have the wrong distributor? I also don't have any ECU codes either.

 

Ignition timing can be adjusted independently of cam timing (for the most part; until you reach the physical limits of distributor rotation).

You're supposed to be aiming for the red mark [on the crank pulley using the timing belt cover triangle mark as a visual reference] when checking ignition timing. If you're aiming for teh white (TDC) mark, then you're drastically retarding the ignition timing....and that's probably why you're smelling all the fuel in the air.

Confirm?
To retard ignition timing, rotate distributor towards front bumper
To advance ignition timing, rotate distributor towards firewall.

EDIT: Nevermind. Ignore what I said. Didn't read post right.

 

How do the camgears look? are the two dots on the side of the gears facing each other dead-on when you are tdc?

 

Have the decks been resurfaced when teh engine was rebuilt?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do the camgears look? are the two dots on the side of the gears facing each other dead-on when you are tdc?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, they line up perfectly. I checked those already.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have the decks been resurfaced when teh engine was rebuilt?</TD></TR></TABLE>

When I removed the head, it looked like it was the first time is was off. I didn't resuface anything.

 

I also used two different timing lights and got the same results.

 

The cam gears are usually PR3 units on B-series motors, altho I can't see anything wrong with them being P30 gears. They should both have the same number of teeth. 34 teeth.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The cam gears are usually PR3 units on B-series motors, altho I can't see anything wrong with them being P30 gears. They should both have the same number of teeth. 34 teeth.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm pretty sure they're the same too. Maybe the markings are in different spots? I don't even think that would cause this problem. I don't get it. I'm really stumped on something that seems so simple.

 

Remove the distributor and see if the intake cam's distributor keyway is damaged in any way.

Put the pins or chop sticks in the cams to set them to TDC #1 and check to see if the cam gear marks line up then.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Remove the distributor and see if the intake cam's distributor keyway is damaged in any way.

Put the pins or chop sticks in the cams to set them to TDC #1 and check to see if the cam gear marks line up then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know what you mean by pins or chops sticks. I removed the valvecover and distributor. Looks fine. Cam gears are indeed PR3, my mistake. I can just turn to TDC and the marks on the gears line up by themselves.

I can definately say now that the engine is burning way too much fuel. The plugs are all black, I've lost half a tank in 60 miles, and I can definately smell it.

Is it possible that the ECU is pulling timing? Detecting knock? Its got low grade 87 gas right now from before the engine build.

 

I rechecked timing and it is off by two degress (camparing to the three marks, its about 2 degrees). How is this even possible? One tooth is 4 degrees. How can I be off a half a tooth?

 

Whats your ignition timing?

As already mentioned already, you should be aiming for the red mark for timing, not the white (unless your timing gun has the dial on the back of it)

 

There are holes in the in the cams in b/w the #1 and #2 cylinders' cam lobes. They match up to the first set of holes in the cam plates closest to the front of the motor.

Short of degreeing the cams in, this is the next best way to see if the cam gears are off...whether it'd be by improper machining or misalignment.

To me it still sounds like the cam timing is off.

Does the motor sound a little lawnmower-ish?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are holes in the in the cams in b/w the #1 and #2 cylinders' cam lobes. They match up to the first set of holes in the cam plates closest to the front of the motor.

Short of degreeing the cams in, this is the next best way to see if the cam gears are off...whether it'd be by improper machining or misalignment.

To me it still sounds like the cam timing is off.

Does the motor sound a little lawnmower-ish?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, the motor does kind of sound loud like a lawnmower. However, I did what you said, and it turns out my timing of the cams is correct. Look at the photo. This is as close as I can get the crankshaft as to TDC while the cams are lined up. Its about 2 degrees off.


The car is making about 5 mpg. I advanced the distributor farther by cutting the legs off to correct the timing. But its still burns the same amount of fuel.

 

Cam timing is retarded.

Easiest way to fix it is to get a set of adj cam gears and advance them 1 to 2 cam degrees.

I still don't know why some B18C1 motors have this problem. Mine has the same issue, and I've heard of others mentioning the same thing where they couldn't get the cam and crank timing marks spot on. And, the cam timing always seems to be retarded in every scenario. No deck milling either b/c in all cases, the motor was internallyl stock and unopened.

On mine, I found mine to be roughly 3 to 4 degrees retarded on the cam timing using a degree wheel. I won't be able to accurately confirm that until I degree the cams in and see what the cam gear correction amount is.

 

Have you replaced the timing belt? How many miles does the belt have? My marks looked like that before I changed the timing belt. Just a thought.

 

just out of curiosity when you set it to tdc, are you turning the crankshaft or turning it by the camshaft? that can probably cause it to be off ever so slightly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Comp97GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you replaced the timing belt? How many miles does the belt have? My marks looked like that before I changed the timing belt. Just a thought.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, I rebuilt this engine with new parts.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just out of curiosity when you set it to tdc, are you turning the crankshaft or turning it by the camshaft? that can probably cause it to be off ever so slightly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I turn it with the crankshaft.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cam timing is retarded.

Easiest way to fix it is to get a set of adj cam gears and advance them 1 to 2 cam degrees.

I still don't know why some B18C1 motors have this problem. Mine has the same issue, and I've heard of others mentioning the same thing where they couldn't get the cam and crank timing marks spot on. And, the cam timing always seems to be retarded in every scenario. No deck milling either b/c in all cases, the motor was internallyl stock and unopened.

On mine, I found mine to be roughly 3 to 4 degrees retarded on the cam timing using a degree wheel. I won't be able to accurately confirm that until I degree the cams in and see what the cam gear correction amount is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Still no progress. I put in adjustable cam gears after I dialed them in +3 degrees. Everything lines up well. But still, its runs no different than before. Timing light still flashes near TDC, car still smells like unburned fuel. What could this be????

Driving around some more, I've notice it hesitates a lot. Since then, I've put in a new ignition, coil, fuel injectors, and regulator and nothing has changed.

 

uhm....you do know that the white line is TDC on the crank pulley?

 

Do a compression test on all four cylinders.

Are all four plugs completely carbon'd up black? I just want to confirm.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">uhm....you do know that the white line is TDC on the crank pulley?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, I know that.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do a compression test on all four cylinders.

Are all four plugs completely carbon'd up black? I just want to confirm.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I checked the plugs everytime I redid timing. All the plugs are all black from carbon. I will do a compression test today and post the results.

 

When you are saying that it is flashing near TDC, are you using an adjustable timing light or non? If it is non-adjustable, your ignition timing is WAY advanced. If you are using an adjustable light, make sure that the dial is at 0 or check with a different gun. For instance, I run @ 19' ignition timing. I have the dial on my gun @19 and it lines up with the TDC mark. If I was running 20', the dial would be @ 20 and so on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Comp97GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you are saying that it is flashing near TDC, are you using an adjustable timing light or non? If it is non-adjustable, your ignition timing is WAY advanced...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you meant way retarded.
White line = 0 degree timing advance (TDC)
Red line = 16 degree timing advance

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITR#132 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think you meant way retarded.
White line = 0 degree timing advance (TDC)
Red line = 16 degree timing advance</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, its very retarded.

Things I have changed. Since I have two MAP sensors on my car, on the firewall and on the TB, I hooked them both up. It seems as though there is less smoke, but its still stinks. I redid the timing again, with the same camgear settings and got TDC right on, and now at full distributor advanced, its only about 3-4 degrees retarded. I was able to move it past full advance because I cut the legs, and now its at 16 BTDC. However, that smell is still there, and I will verify tonight if its burning too much fuel.