At least not in an ITC car. In an ITC car slow in equals slow out.

This is the big learning curve for me going from a 2625lb, 175hp Integra to a 2175lb 80hp Civic. I haven't learned it yet. Not even close.

I'm STILL driving this car the same way I drove the old one and its just not working. As further proof that its me and not the car I did an Enduro this weekend with Blake Meredith. Blake is damned fast, and experienced in ITC and G Prod cars.
Blake's technique is pretty simple... Fast in-Fast out.
Now, I know some of you are thinking "well... OBVIOUSLY."
No, I'm saying really fast in. Like not really using the brakes fast in. Like there is no way the old Integra would even begin to turn at this velocity fast in.

I'm still trailbraking, rotating the car smoothly, and getting on the gas well before a nice, late apex. Blake is throwing the car into the corner ******** and elbows with his foot mashed to the floor. Lots of work on the front tires, lots of curb hopping, and lots of steering wheel input in both directions.
The end result is he got damned close to the ITC track record at Road Atlanta during qualifying. At race pace, he's about 4 seconds per lap faster than me.

Yeah... I got a lot of work to do.

Scott, who had the prettiest, slowest laps you've ever seen this weekend.

 

but atleast bob looks good!

 

Bob looks fantastic at 90mph from 20 yards away.
Bob looked REALLY fantastic turning a 1:52.7 in the middle of a July day yesterday.

Which was the plan all along.

 

ive said this before, slow in + fast out = slow. its how you LEARN car control, apexing and whatnot, but its not fast.

also, in the beginning its stressed that late apexing is the fastest way out of the corner. well, the trick is to find the EARLIEST apex possible to be the fastest around the track. its easy to get stuck trying to late apex every turn thinking thats the fastest way, when a lot of turns simply dont need so much late apex, especially faster turns.

now if i could only DO these things myself....

 

yeah, what he said.

in the kind of cars most of us drive corner entry speed is everything, provided you turn in at the exact right spot, hit the apex and use all the road at track out, every time. The problem is, the only way to get a novice to do those three things with any consistency is to get them into the corner well below the cars limit, which is probably where the slow in, fast out mantra originated.

for a novice, fast in equals gravel trap out.

joel

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
for a novice, fast in equals gravel trap out.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

my thoughts exactly.

but learing to drive a "momentum car" is a very rewarding thing

 

Maybe I didn't communicate my point well. I'm not referring to Novice HPDE "slow-in, brake in a straight line" type stuff. I'm referring to the weight and velocity of my old car compared to my new one. You couldn't toss the old car into a corner the way this one can be thrown in. It just wouldn't work.
But, that car made up for it by actually being able to power off a corner. There is no such animal as powering off a corner in an ITC car.

 

its really still the same. in turn 1 at thunderhill, its a huge banked 90 degree turn at the end of the front straight away. the ITC 510's dont bother braking there, or even lifting. on my crx brake to about 95 mph from about 110 and throttle on the whole turn. the fast crx/integra driver tells me its lift throttle to get the car rotated and then full on, no braking. i havent got the ***** yet to do that, except once i was chasing an integra and almost made it 4 wheels on, so i know if i tried again, i could do it the way he says, but i really dont have the ***** quite honestly. so even with a ITA crx, its all the same, its all about keeping that momentum, dont waste it. find the point where you are just exceeding it, and keep it there. maybe you wont ever exceed it with an ITC car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe I didn't communicate my point well. I'm not referring to Novice HPDE "slow-in, brake in a straight line" type stuff</TD></TR></TABLE>

Joel knew what you were saying , his comment was simply based on the origin of the term...

 

These little Civics are great cars ain't they???

Toss em in deep, can't get into trouble...Just make sure you keep your right foot on the mat...

Good luck with the learning curve...

Jeff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, the trick is to find the EARLIEST apex possible to be the fastest around the track.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ding ding ding, no more calls please, we have a winner....

My favorite saying is "turn early and floor it."

Matt&lt;--turns so early for south bend that he scares himself, not to mention passengers...

 

Okay, riddle me this, Batman...

Why doesn't the "fast-in" approach apply for the Integra? I would argue that it clearly does. What is different is the margin of error available and the talent required to keep your elbows ahead of your *******. This is what separates the Auberlens and Kleinubangs among us from the rest of us among us.

Or whatever.

K

 

Thanks again for the crew pass for the enduro Scott. It was fun watching you guys out there. Even more fun watching Blake pull on BMW's going up the hill in turn one in an ITC car. He really didn't lift much at all, (or slow down from the front straight) and as I was sitting 30 yards from the turn, he didn't brake much either.

Next time, I will bring my creds to get into the pit lane.

 

The "Fast In" for the Civic will always be faster than the Integra. I'm talking turn-in to apex. The Civic requires less braking and has less mass that has to get moving in another direction. This is why you very often see ITA CRXs beating up on competently driven ITS cars with 60 to 70 more horsepower.

One thing you learn pretty quick in an ITC car is that you can almost always close on the ITS cars (even the fastest guys) from the moment their brake lights come on to the apex of the corner. After that, its all over.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay, riddle me this, Batman...

Why doesn't the "fast-in" approach apply for the Integra? I would argue that it clearly does.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree but in the real world there are 2 things which I think are the biggest reason the Civic has the upper hand (1) Weight. (2) Contact patch. Better add (3) The relationship between (1) and (2).

Physics gets you on the weight issue. It is harder to change directions for a moving object when there is more mass. Scott's ITC car runs 225 13s right? The Integra runs 225 15s. Bigger car, same contact patch. If you could get 245s under the Integra, I bet we we could go in faster.

Point in fact, Pierre Kleinubing and Peter Cunningham can turn 1:40s at RA with an Integra. (on street tires).

 

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I was comparing the potential of "fast in" vs. "slow in" for any given car. I completely realize that "fast in" is a different thing for a car with more than a hundred kilos or more of mass. My point is that the guy who can "fast in" an Integra is going to be faster than...well, me.

Kirk

 

We're all talking about the same thing.

My point kind of was that you can slow in (in relative terms) an Integra and still power off the corner. In other words, you can still turn a decent lap without having to toss it in. Tossing it in is faster, but you can survive without doing it.
I'm learning in the ITC car that it must be tossed in and can be tossed in easier and faster than the Integra. I just haven't managed to start tossing it nearly as fast as I need to.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just haven't managed to start tossing it nearly as fast as I need to.</TD></TR></TABLE>

When you are "tossing it", is faster always better? Seems counter-intuitive, if you ask me...

 

I translate "tossing it" into the corner as scrubbing off speed and getting the car to rotate. When I drove an '85 ITC CRX with Mike Fine a couple of years ago I learned this FWD technique instead of using a lot of braking. As noted previously above, carry a bunch of speed into the corner - toss car into corner with early apex - car rotates and loses a little speed - mash the pedal - understeer out the other side (neutral if the set-up was right on). In Turn 1 at Roebling Road I would get all of my braking done going into 1a, get back on the throttle and then in 1b where I used to tap the brakes in a RWD ITB car to set the front end, I just briefly lifted the throttle in the ITC car to get it to rotate and then mash the pedal. It was great fun once I got used to it.

Haven't driven the ITS Prelude near enough times to even know if this type of driving style is even possible in this car. It didn't work the first time I tried it in T5 at Road Atlanta last year and I was amazed at how long you can slide backwards in a fast, heavy car through a gravel trap compared to what I was used to...


Modified by itsprelude at 10:31 PM 7/28/2003

 

What I heard from a ITA CRX driver (who holds lap record at many tracks), you need to kick the car into oversteer entering the turn, and use the throttle to pull you out. That's the fastest way through a turn, slide through it, scrub off speed as necessary.

 

Part of that oversteer at entry theory involves overcoming FWD's tendency to understeer. A little oversteer at entry means the front wheels don't have to work as hard and their angle of attack is straighter, which allows earlier and more agressive throttle input which = faster exits. This is also why we set up the rear springs, sway bars and damping harder than the front.

I think "Itsprelude" decsribed Roebling's FWD 1&2 perfectly!

As for slow in/fast out...... In order to win poles and races, figure out how to be fast in, fast out, fast down the straights, fast in the braking zones and fast dealing with traffic!

The only places that I think "slow in" are really tight corners like VIR's # 4 & Oak tree, and Road Atl's #7.


Modified by Track rat at 10:10 PM 7/28/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">throwing the car into the corner ******** and elbows with his foot mashed to the floor. Lots of work on the front tires, lots of curb hopping, and lots of steering wheel input in both directions</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like you've got it figured out to me! A really good ITC driver will look like he is about to fly off the track through every corner. Being that you probably have the best weight/contact patch combination of any car out there, your car will have the greatest potential to do this. It's not easy to do. I'm in my forth season with ITC cars and it's still tough. From what I've learned, here's how you do it:

Step 1 - get out hacksaw
Step 2 - hack off brake pedal
Step 3 - throw away brake pedal, you don't need it
Step 4 - mash throttle pedal with foot
Step 5 - pray
Step 6 - if at Road Atlanta, pray again, otherwise go to step 7
Step 7 - throw into corner
Step 8 - lots of steeing input, throttle adjustment, and hanging on
Repeat!

 

[Oracle]What is really going to cook your noodle is - how much faster would you have been if you took your new knowledge and applied it to the Integra?[/Oracle]

 

Is anyone getting confused because you've heard "smooth is fast" until you're sick of hearing it? Yes, smooth IS fast, but you have to be smooth with those aggressive inputs while "tossing it in", catching the tail, climbing curbs, and putting two wheels off!

 

Interestingly, Bob P's description is almost exactly how I would have described driving a FWD rally car on a loose surface...
K