As the topic states, I'm looking to go wild on my '95 coupe. I realize it's not the greatest platform to work with, a hatchblack would be ideal. I've started with the basics, where else can I go?

This is the second year now in SM, first year with my new motor (Type R block, Si head). Anyways, I haven't really lost this year yet (knock on wood) but I've only been to a few bigger events, no divisionals, no solotime. I'm not trying to turn this post into a bragging section at all, I realize I would get walked at a big event, I just haven't had the time to make it to one. I've gone to about ten or eleven races this year, I lost count really. I live here in Iowa, so it's tough to make it to really good events, but I've made some. One of my greatest tests was a nebraska region event, where I competed against a few real good cars (Todd a.k.a Yellow Dragon) and a Supra pushing over 400 horse with hoosier slicks and a damn good driver.

I currently have the head off my car putting new Toda Spec C cams in the car, I'm just wondering what can I do to make my car more competitive at a national level? Here is my setup:

B18C5 block, SI head
Toda Spec C cams, gears, valvesprings etc.
Hondata S200 (coming soon)
hasport/energy suspension motor mounts
Eibach Sportline springs
KYB agx shocks (hope to replace with Koni double-adjustables)
Suspension Techniques sway bars
Kumho Victoracer 205-45-14's
Powerslot rotors Metalmaster pads
and some other little **** to make the car quicker

The car is driven on the road sometimes, and occasionally taken to the drag strip, so I don't think I wanna go FULL OUT racecar, but I want to be almost to that point.

On paper, it really doesn't look like much, what can I do??? I really want to make it to atleast one solotime event this year, and I don't want to wind up in the back half of the field. Any suggestions would be helpful!

 

To focus on autocross, work on suspension development. You'll need aloot more than street springs and KYB's. A full coil-over setup or revalved konis/GC's will probably serve you well, but even then its not plug-n-play - it will require some testing and possibly a Evolution phase 3 school to really dial it in.

I'm not sure what you mean by "full out" though...

 

Alright cool, sorry by full out I mean't basically as gutted as possible, and motor not reliable at all for street.... car soo low it scrapes on my driveway (which is basically impossible)

 

Assuming you have aggressive alignment settings(which is cheap and easy to do), I'd then concentrate on:

1. stiffer springs(Koni DA's should be able to handle anything you'd want to drive on the street occasionally)
2. wider tires

No reason to be on 205 pizza cutters. Roll your fenders for all they're worth and see if you can squeeze a 225 under there.

Might want to think about an LSD if you don't have one to put down the power easier. Also replace bushings with stiffer ones(polyurethane, delrin, monoballs etc.) to make your suspension as solid and predictable as possible.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MEANB18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alright cool, sorry by full out I mean't basically as gutted as possible</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not legal in SM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> and motor not reliable at all for street.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Quite possible in SM - but pump gas is better for autox, IMO

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">car soo low it scrapes on my driveway (which is basically impossible)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Get coil-over setup, set ride height and corner weights and mark sleeves/perches. Raise as neccesary for driving elsewhere, lower at event.

 

yeah I've read the rulebook every night, and realize that gutting the car is illegal... (all panels need to be in-tact... but there are ways of taking weight from the car without switching classes.

 

Once you have a REAL suspension, take off as much LEGAL weight as possible. Carbon hood, tubular control arms, battery, seats, body panels...etc. The coupe is going to be heavier than you'd like, so try to minimize it.

Personally, I'd rather have a SC'd D16 than any B series....again, due to weight. But thats a different discussion.

 

Well if Daddio can place well in SM with a Neon, then it's possible to do it with an EG coupe, assuming you have Daddio level skill. And that is a BIG assumption.

The best thing you can do is get down to the Nationals in Topeka and see first hand what you're up against in SM. Talk to people, listen and learn. Dont worry about your finishing position. That's what i would do...

Besides the more hardcore suspension mods mentioned by others above, you gonna need plenty more power. A turbo pushing 250-300WHP would be nice. An LSD is a must. At least 225-45-15 Hossiers on 15x8 or wider rims. Given the abundant supply of power, i would look into maybe even getting some 245-45-16s to fit in there, assuiming they clear the UCAs and with some bigtime fender massaging/flaring. The wider/taller tire will be able to put the power down better and with more control. The key to a killer FWD SM car is: low weight, BIG horsepower, but above all maximizing the setup to get as many of those ponies on the ground as possible without sacrificing handling too much... which is a catch-22 in itself... Good luck...

 

Go to Nats. and see what you are up against. One of two things will happen. One, you resolve to seriously drive your a$$ off and dump absolute BUCKETS of money into your car, or two, you will decide that you are too much of an underdog in that class, and will go another route. Good luck in either case.

--Chris, who has been running (and getting his *** handed to him) in SM for 2 years now in a small displacement FF platform.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Given the abundant supply of power, i would look into maybe even getting some 245-45-16s to fit in there, assuiming they clear the UCAs and with some bigtime fender massaging/flaring. The wider/taller tire will be able to put the power down better and with more control. The key to a killer FWD SM car is: low weight, BIG horsepower, but above all maximizing the setup to get as many of those ponies on the ground as possible without sacrificing handling too much... which is a catch-22 in itself... Good luck...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think Rodney here on honda tech is working to cram some 245s on his hatch. You might also wanna talk to him about SM setup. He's built a VERY nice SM car that hauls ***. If I keep in his good graces he might even let me drive it again!

Having said that... If you want something that is streetable you can follow .RJs advice for the Koni/GC setup. I would still get the shocks valved to match the spring rates you get. LSD is sooooooo important.

 

#1 Get a real suspension. Contact Lee Grimes at Koni he'll steer you in the right direction

#2 Get a frickin' LSD. Don't start worrying about making more power until you can successfully put the power you already have to the pavement.

#3 are you still running the stock 10.8 front brakes? If so, the wheels and tires I would recomend would be some 13x8.5s with 245/45/13 Hoosiers

those three will put you in the meat of the SM competition. I have a personal friend who does decent in SM in a 2000 Si with just GC/Koni's, Jun clutch/flywheel, and a quaife.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
#3 are you still running the stock 10.8 front brakes? If so, the wheels and tires I would recomend would be some 13x8.5s with 245/45/13 Hoosiers
</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are no 245/45/13 hoosiers

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MEANB18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As the topic states, I'm looking to go wild on my '95 coupe. I realize it's not the greatest platform to work with, a hatchblack would be ideal. I've started with the basics, where else can I go?

This is the second year now in SM, first year with my new motor (Type R block, Si head). Anyways, I haven't really lost this year yet (knock on wood) but I've only been to a few bigger events, no divisionals, no solotime. I'm not trying to turn this post into a bragging section at all, I realize I would get walked at a big event, I just haven't had the time to make it to one. I've gone to about ten or eleven races this year, I lost count really. I live here in Iowa, so it's tough to make it to really good events, but I've made some. One of my greatest tests was a nebraska region event, where I competed against a few real good cars (Todd a.k.a Yellow Dragon) and a Supra pushing over 400 horse with hoosier slicks and a damn good driver.

I currently have the head off my car putting new Toda Spec C cams in the car, I'm just wondering what can I do to make my car more competitive at a national level? Here is my setup:

B18C5 block, SI head
Toda Spec C cams, gears, valvesprings etc.
Hondata S200 (coming soon)
hasport/energy suspension motor mounts
Eibach Sportline springs
KYB agx shocks (hope to replace with Koni double-adjustables)
Suspension Techniques sway bars
Kumho Victoracer 205-45-14's
Powerslot rotors Metalmaster pads
and some other little **** to make the car quicker

The car is driven on the road sometimes, and occasionally taken to the drag strip, so I don't think I wanna go FULL OUT racecar, but I want to be almost to that point.

On paper, it really doesn't look like much, what can I do??? I really want to make it to atleast one solotime event this year, and I don't want to wind up in the back half of the field. Any suggestions would be helpful!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, talk to rodney

 

What it's gonna take is rear wheel or all wheel drive. SM is all about unlimited horsepower. Front wheel drive Hondas are all about limited HP, light weight and great handling.

Look at National tour results this year -

Ft Myers - only 2 entries Honda
San Diego - 21 entries BMW, BMW, Subaru, BMW, Camaro
Houston - 16 entries Supra, Subaru, Mustang, Firebird, mustang
Atwater - 9 entries BMW, BMW, BMW
Toledo - 6 entries Honda, Neon
DC - 13 entries Neon, Honda, BMW, BMW
Toledo - 13 entries Eagle, BMW, Honda, Subaru

2002 Nationals 43 entries BMW, Audi, BMW, Neon, BMW, BMW, Supra, Eagle, Honda, Supra, BMW, Subaru

Let me point out that the Neon wins were by Mark Daddio (the Alien). So front wheel drive can win but not when the big boys come out to play.

 

well, whatever the 13 inch hoosier is....isn't it 235? 225?

 

I'm fortunate enough to get to watch one of the top National SM car/driver combo's run at most of our events. (The Vic Sias driven SC'ed M3)

Find a way to put your Honda Badges on a M3 with a super charger. Seriously, I don't think a FWD car can be competitve on the national level against the big bad BMW's in Street Mod.

But, having said that, I'd love to see someone try.

Suspension would be the first place to start. You'r going to need purpose built coilovers, or at the very least DA Koni's and Ground Controls with some custom spring rates (off the shelf rates will be too soft).

I'd also look into getting the biggest rear sway bar you can find...Call Comptech.

Brakes, gonna need better ones, but ultimately the more you are braking, the slower you are going. And I wouldn't get anything that wouldn't allow you to run the ultra light 13's with Hoosiers.

An LSD for sure is gonna be needed.

Lookinto adding a Super Charger...

Hope that gives you a good starting point.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brakes, gonna need better ones, but ultimately the more you are braking, the slower you are going. And I wouldn't get anything that wouldn't allow you to run the ultra light 13's with Hoosiers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

is there any reason why you say the stock brake system isn't good enough? auto-x is not very hard on brakes.. at least not enough to fade a stock 'optimized' setup, ie: decent pads and fluid..

 

I agree completely that the supercharged M3's are going to be really tough to beat. Those cars are fast. But that being said, I'm building what I think will be the ultimate FWD SM car (ha HA)..... Or so I hope. It's essentially going to be a CSP Honda CRX like Allen Kugler's car, but it will be a Civic body and have twice the power. I think the combination of a good CSP platform and double the power has a real chance of catching the M3's because the FWD car can be so light.

I'm starting with an 88 Civic base model and using the 89 Civic Si motor (which is how the car sits now in STS). Right now the car weighs 2040 lbs and I think I can get another 140 lbs out of it in SM trim. The motor can be lighted and made to make alot more power if normally aspirated. Or perhaps it can be forced induction, but that ads weight, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. I haven't decided about forced induction or not yet.

So, does anyone else thing that an 88 Civic with double the power and as light as a real CSP car will be a front runner in SM?

Chris

 

It really is hard to say, if you use Bob Tunnel as the mark to beat, then you have a tough road ahead of you.

If you can get the power down. That will be the hard thing with significantly more power than an SP FWD car. If you can get it down effectively then I think there is a chance. As a bunch are finding out though, it seems you need to consider reliability much more when you are trying to put that much power down as well.

I am very interested in seeing the results.

Good Luck

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MEANB18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's it gonna take to make my EG nationally competitive in SM?</TD></TR></TABLE>



i also took second behind daddio at the dc tour. i would have been closer if it wasn't for the f'ing german cars puking fluids and losing wheels!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 80's Boy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I don't think a FWD car can be competitve on the national level against the big bad BMW's in Street Mod.

But, having said that, I'd love to see someone try.</TD></TR></TABLE>

in all seriousness, my car (enginewise) is nowhere near the limit of the rules, and i am on a mission to prove a n/a civic can trophy at nationals. i have competed with henry hoeh (s/c'd m3, 3rd at 02' nats) and i have come awfully close to beating him, best being 1/10th of a second. i guess we'll find out in a month and a half what the underdog can do...

 

i think if/when rodney makes more power, he can catch those monster M3's. i have seen him go at it against the likes of henry hoeh and i realy think he just needs more power.

as for your eg coupe, its basically all been said.
lsd
real sus
wider hoosiers (for nat'ls and big event)
200+ wheel horse power
good nut begind the wheel

as for the 4th gen civic being capable in sm, i think its possible. once i get out of school, i wanna take a shot at sm with a b18/b20 in the 4th gen. i was thinkin of sohc s/c but i odnt know enough about them to know if theyll make enough power. one issue with the 4th gen is the suspension geometry isnt quite as good as the 5th gen. so one would have to make up for it in weight. seeing as how the 4gen is faster than 5th gen (so far) in sts, this may be possible.

-spenc....lurking in the darkness

 

I really appreciate all the advice guys, it's been a tough year with the car trying to figure out what I wanna do. Just out of curiousity, most of you are suggesting coilovers as opposed to race springs... is there a reason for it? (Or is this just because i said I wanted to drive my car on the street?)

I think I have some really good ideas on ways to spend money... damn.

I was at an autocross a couple weekends ago actually where my friend's father had a new setup on his Celica. He placed fifth last year in his class at nationals, and is a frequent to the solotime events around the midwest. He just made a big investment into his rear shocks (Koni yellows, sent them in to have Koni make them double adjustable) and I was very impressed. This car handled so incredibly well, I wanted to make the call to Koni the next day. Is anyone running the double adjustables around here?

Thanks again for all the help, I hope to be COMPLETELY done with the car sometime this winter, I hope I'm not disappointed!

 

[QUOTE=MEANB18...Just out of curiousity, most of you are suggesting coilovers as opposed to race springs... [/QUOTE]

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Here's my understanding -
Coil-overs is really a misnomer as all Hondas come with coils over the shocks. What's really meant by coilovers is spring perch adjustability. If you look at a stock honda spring/shock unit you will see that the bottom spring perch is fixed in position.

A "coil-over" is basically a shock (or a shock sleeve) that has a way to adjust the height of the lower spring perch. This allows you to adjust the height of the car at each corner. Thus you can corner weight the car which is incredibly important to good handling.

I am not sure what you mean by "race springs" Essentially, there are only two types of springs - progressive and non-progrssive. Both can and are used on the street. Most coil-over sleeves or shocks can use any type and rate of spring as long as they are flat. The stock perches in Hondas (and most other cars) have indentations so the non-flat stock springs fit in them.

Hope this helps.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What it's gonna take is rear wheel or all wheel drive. SM is all about unlimited horsepower. Front wheel drive Hondas are all about limited HP, light weight and great handling.

Look at National tour results this year -

Ft Myers - only 2 entries Honda
San Diego - 21 entries BMW, BMW, Subaru, BMW, Camaro
Houston - 16 entries Supra, Subaru, Mustang, Firebird, mustang
Atwater - 9 entries BMW, BMW, BMW
Toledo - 6 entries Honda, Neon
DC - 13 entries Neon, Honda, BMW, BMW
Toledo - 13 entries Eagle, BMW, Honda, Subaru

2002 Nationals 43 entries BMW, Audi, BMW, Neon, BMW, BMW, Supra, Eagle, Honda, Supra, BMW, Subaru

Let me point out that the Neon wins were by Mark Daddio (the Alien). So front wheel drive can win but not when the big boys come out to play.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Seattle - 17 entries - BMW, Eagle, BMW, Acura, Subaru

Nash

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MEANB18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I hope to be COMPLETELY done with the car sometime this winter, I hope I'm not disappointed! </TD></TR></TABLE>

listen, you will NEVER be done modding the car, trust me on this... this is my latest mod...



i won't be able to afford to paint it right now, so i will make it all ghetto for the next few months.