after reading another thread, and having first hand experience with the whole "instructors must drive student's cars" stuff, i'd like more input.

-the one time i was "required" to have an instructor drive my car with me as a passenger, i politely protested. after some discussion, it turns out that my car was in better working condition, and i as a driver had more EXPERIENCE (not neccessarily skill) than the "instructor"

-isn't the risk of an instructor damaging/spinning/crashing a students car elevated because of his relative unfamiliarity with the particular vehicle?

-what is accomplished with an instructor as a driver that can't be accomplished on a "parade" lap with him as a passenger, and paired with the standard tech inspection?

-who's "problem" does it become if something does break, or a crash does occur while the instructor is driving? to the best of my knowledge, this sort of liability isn't isn't addressed in the typical waiver you see at events

i bring this up because i am once again (although i said a never would, but a cute girl is dragging me along ) attending an event with a group that has this as policy, and when it comes up, i want to have the ammunition to once again refute their request, which imo (not that it's worth anything), is absurd.

any and all comments welcome

 

I think you know all the answers to these questions!
When in doubt, just say NO!

 

what kind of event requires that instructors drive their students cars?

 

it was a HPDE type event. from my understanding, it's not commonplace amongst most sanctioning bodies. but every once in a while you run across some groups that require it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When in doubt, just say NO!</TD></TR></TABLE>



When I took the TCRA school, one of my instructors wanted to drive my car and I politely declined, even though he recited the racers rules..."if you crash someone's car you buy it"...yea, funny, that wasn't written on the waiver I signed. Visions of him mis-shifting and blowing my motor raised my pulse rate when he asked. I mentioned why I preferred not to have him drive and well he didn't come back the next two sessions to drive with me. Oh well, I drove my car home in one piece Sunday night. Bottom line: it's your car, not theirs, and they cannot make you let anyone drive your car.

 

If you mean driving the student's car at speed, not pace lap speed for track familiarisation, I've never instructed with a group that requires it. I have driven student's cars at speed, once with an experienced student who did not know the track and once with a novice after losing a p/s belt on my car. In both cases I went at maybe 70-75%, not all out. If a student wanted me to take his car out and run it all out, we would need a specific agreement on possible damage first. Imagine writing off a $100k Porsche, saying "Oops" and walking away. If I can't afford to fix/replace it, I'm not running it hard.

One reason for instructors to keep a functional passenger seat is to be able to take students out to demonstrate techniques. As an instructor I would not agree to being required to take student's cars out at speed and I would expect students to refuse.

 

I recently did a Chin event back in May and my second instructor for the day asked to get 2 laps in my car. He pushed it pretty hard I thought. In fact, he pushed it harder than I did and I own the car. He even locked up one of my tires for about 50 yards, that kinda pissed me off. He did show me that I wasn't pushing my car nearly as hard as I could be in the curves, but it made me nervous having him drive my vechicle. I didn't like it. If he had wrecked I don't know what I would have done.

 

I dont think there's anything that can be shown in your own vehicle that cant be shown in their vehicle.

Also, evan brought up a very good point one day - that if you are requested multiple times to drive your student's car you shouldnt be pushing it harder than they are, because they just might not be up to that skill level and think "he's 2500 rpm higher at exit than I am" and try to overdrive their limits. So if you are going to do this, emphasize consistency and smoothness - the speed will come from them once they can do these things.

 

i think this is an excellent point. unfortunately, thier claimed purpose of the drive was not to so much show the student the capabilities of the car or the proper line of the course, but to "ensure the mechanical worthiness of the vehicle for high speed driving."

it was this motive that when i not so politlely confronted them later in the day led them to justify driving my friends HIGHLY modified MR2 to the point that requires opposite lock correction, overheating, and some mild lock-up.

also, the "instructor" in question actions were justified because he "had xxxxx credentials."

so yeah......i'm done.......for now

 

I am defenitley not a fan of this. I had the unfortunate experience of allowing my instructor to drive my car, he said he wanted to show me a couple of things in my car. it was the first time that i had ever been to the track, didnt really know what was going on, so i defered to his "best judgment" and i guess i was just too trusting.

And as fate would have it he plowed right into the back of a porche, crumpled my car up pretty good. and all i got was a gee i am sorry, didnt mean for that to happen. i approached the official of the event, and pretty much got the same response, stone walled with...thats what happens at the track sometimes. they were kind enough to help tape down my hood and headlights for me so i could make the 3 hr drive home.

 

I have had students want to know why they can't take their street cars on street tires through a corner at the same speed as I take mine with race suspension/tires through the same corner after taking them on a ridealong. I suppose taking their car out, trying it, and wrecking it would be one way of explaining it. I prefer to give them the specs on my car and compare them to their car, it's less destructive. Make sure the student understands that this is a learning process and that it takes time. Make sure they are having fun, look out for race face/red mist.

 

I went to BMWCCA events back in 99 and 00. It required the instructors to drive the student's car for the first few laps of the first session of the day (both days if it's a 2-day event). I'm not sure if they still do it.

But for all the instructors who drove my car, they were very courteous and went no faster than 5/10th. They just needed to show the line and make sure the car is mechanically sound.

 

I personally think it is very helpful to have the instructor drive the 1st couple laps of the 1st session on the 1st day, under yellow or behind a pace car.
It's a lot easier to pickup the proper line when you can see it rather than having it explaned to you while your driving.

My car or theirs? I don't much care as long as if it's mine it is a slow lap, which it should be if I'm going to learn anything anyway...
I figure it's easier to let your instructor only take 1/4-1/2 of your 1st session if you use the students car, otherwise you have to switch cars and end up blowing your whole session.

 

BMWCCA schools usually require instructors driving student cars for a couple familiarization laps. These are not at speed. I don't instruct for them so I'm not familiar with their policies with this.

For complete beginners (or if it's an intermediate student on a new track), I do think that their first few laps should be in the passenger seat. There is just too much to learn right from the beginning (corner worker stations, the track layout, the line, etc.) and this learning is slowed if a student is driving. I'd rather take a student out in my car for this type of learning, but some events aren't well structured to facilitate this. I've never asked to drive anyone's car on the track but I've never turned down an offer to drive a student's car. For beginners I'm totally comfortable with this. I just drive really smoothly at 6/10ths or so to try to imprint in their minds that smooth and steady is the key. What I don't like is when an advanced/intermediate student asks me to drive their car really hard so they can see where they can go faster. I've heard of accident after accident where a student, upon seeing an instructor go really fast in their car, thinks that they can go that fast. This never works and often ends in a nice tow home. Not cool.

I'm a big fan of giving rides in my car. I always invite students to ride along with me and usually try to stay just under the limit to avoid the same type of incident mentioned above. Fortunately my car has much lower limits than most of my students' cars, so this tends to work well.

 

do you feel that the same can be accomplished on a parade lap or 2 or 3 with instructor in the passenger seat?

 

From a total beginner's perspective (6 auto-crosses and 0 RR experience)...

before I started reading this thread, I WANTED to have an Instructor ("professional") take my car out at least semi-hard so I could get a feel for the capabilities of my car on a track.

Maybe If it were possible to choose an Instructor whose car is set up similar to mine and ride in his.... Or maybe an instructor who hangs out here on H-T that I've chatted with and have built up a trust in his abilities. Then again, my car's not terribly expensive.

You guys do make some good points, even though I don't feel a huge need to feed my ego, I probably would end up trying to beat the instructor's times and pushing too hard.

 

It's a great idea on paper, but the liability issues make it a bad idea in practice.

 

My opinion... NEVER drive anything you can't write a check for... be it a student's car, a friend's car, whatever. If you can't hand them a check for it, don't take the keys. Now, maybe in touring laps, or for oreintation laps I'd think about it, but then see the next point below and even then it's not really worth the [however small] risk.

As far as a "valuable experience for the student to see me [as the instructor] drive their car"... I can show them so much more driving my own car than I can driving theirs. The only reason for me to drive their car would be selfish, like wanting to add that type of car to my "neat cars I've driven" list.

r2x ~ who gives VERY few people the keys to her car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSC240sx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a lot easier to pickup the proper line when you can see it rather than having it explaned to you while your driving.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree w/ you on this. You should be able to easily pick up the line by studying proper lines on various types or corners (I'm literally talking about reading books - Ayrton Senna's is one of the best), reading elevation changes, spectating at various corners, and certainly watching the road for the groove. Riding in someone else's car, who knows the line, is also a great way to learn.

Unless there is a specific clause in an agreement you sign w/ the sanctioning body stating that they will pay ALL (medical, parts, labor, and tow) costs associated w/ any damage done to your car while one of their instructors is driving your car (even if it wasn't his fault), I wouldn't even think of having them drive. It's your car, you've got to be smart about protecting it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by F1HONDA &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I disagree w/ you on this. You should be able to easily pick up the line by studying proper lines on various types or corners (I'm literally talking about reading books - Ayrton Senna's is one of the best), reading elevation changes, spectating at various corners, and certainly watching the road for the groove.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Most novice students are so overwhelmed, especially never been on track before, that they wont pick up on this.

RJ

 

At no time ever is it appropriate. Ever.


Seriously. EVER.


Anything that you need to show them can be done either in your car, or in "the Van".

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you feel that the same can be accomplished on a parade lap or 2 or 3 with instructor in the passenger seat?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Orientation laps in the instructors car is a better option.

 

I would have no problem having an instructor drive my car. Beforehand I would make them understand it's my daily driver, and that I would expect them to pay for any damages they may incur.

I would kind of feel like an *** for having to do this, but it's my car, my money, it's a necessary evil. Hell, I may go so far as having them sign something.

Does anyone feel I'd be overdoing it by implementing this sort of policy?

 

When I went to a PCA event earlier in the year, my instructor asked to drive the first couple of laps of the first session in my car for track orientation, etc. This is the first time anyone had requested this and it was before the whole "blow up" on here about this type of thing.

Before the instructor asked, I had spoken with him for an hour or so about driving in general and he was also teaching the classroom portion of the day. Because of this, I felt pretty comfortable and agreed to it. He didn't push my car too hard (maybe 6 or 7/10ths) and in fact I actually wished he might have pushed it a little harder as I know I'm not hitting the car's potential.

Basically, he wanted to show me around the track and he thought it would be better to do it in my car because then all we needed to do was stop on grid and switch seats vs. full pit and switch cars. While this could be a good idea - the downside is that after seeing an experienced driver lap a track that he is intimately familiar with in my car then doing a rapid switch I was pretty amped up. My first couple laps were sloppy and it took me some time to settle back down.

That, combined with everything I've read on here since and the liability issues, makes me reluctant to think I would do this again.

As an aside, my buddy that goes to these events with me has a leased 2000 Porsche 911 that he's always trying to get me to drive around the track. I've logged many hours in that car on the street but I always politely refuse at the track - if a tire would go or some other random incident would occur I'd be screwed.

Sorry for the long post...

 

I have had students ask me to drive their cars. In those cases, it is far preferable to just play it safe and say no, then to go out and risk breaking something. This isn't an issue of only pushing it 7/10ths. What if you flat spot a tire, the brakes fail, the engine does something bad, a bearing fries? Whether or not it was your fault, it quickly degenerates into a "you did it/your car was going to do that anyway" kind of thing. This is a school environment. It's supposed to be fun. Leave all possible issues at rest, and just don't drive the student's car. Ever.

I usually downplay it and say that the student's car has 2-3 times the power of my own car, and I would only get into trouble with it. (this is sadly true 90% of the time)