I was just wondering why when anyone says they want an N/A monster, or put other performance parts on their car, everyone always says Spoon, Toda, etc... But no one ever mentions Mugen. I was always under the impression that Mugen made the best stuff? Do they, and it just isn't cost effective compared to the other brands? Or do they make crap?

Just wondering.

 

t00 much $$$$

There are more affordable alternatives out there... that may (and sometimes are) better.

Willis
-who wishes he had enough money for Mugen equipment.

 

Their stuff is amazing quality and really expensive (especially in CDN $)

They don't make a lot of internal parts (cams etc) so they've fallen out of favour with the NA tuners. They are also the "oldest" company on the Honda aftermarket scene (I had Mugen parts on my 1989 CRX in 1990!) and because of the intense marketing campaigns of other companies, the monopoly of King Motorsports and the insane desire of the buying community to always have the newest stuff - are not as popular anymore.

Some of their products are now a bit dated in design - but they are great quality.

I have the ECU, CAI, 4-1 header, twin-loop exhaust, pedals, rear wing, head gasket, thermostat and MF-10s on my car and think they're great.

 

Mugen products are more geared towards road racing, and less towards drag racing. Therefore, their motor modifications are not quite as wild as some of the Toda stuff. However, it yields much higher reliability during constant on-track use. As for suspension, Mugen is a front-runner among the three you mentioned.

I know that you are more into drag racing, but understand one thing. In road racing, mildly modified motor with a highly tuned suspension setup is MUCH better than high horsepower and a poorly-mildly modified suspension setup. Just ask all of the Porsche owners that I beat in my last race

By the way, the Spoon engine stuff that they sell to the public is pretty tame.

 

Mugen N1

___________

97 R #58
01 F150 5.4 Supercrew
97 M3 4 Dr

 

they have a buncha ricey stuff like Toyota Rice Department

oil caps ect.....

 

i agree with andrew 100%..and also.. im tired of all this ricey talk..who cares....what someone wants to do with their car is up to them....i enjoy my oil cap as well as my header....

 

i enjoy EP's oil cap, too.

it just so happens to be connected to a ridiculously nice car, that's all... (:

-k-b0t, who hopes his oil cap doesn't feel inferior...

 

Yeah. I agree, I want my R to have as much mugen stuff in/on it as possible... I have always thought Mugen was cool, I could care what anyone else thinks.

 

I agree with most of your points, but it's not fair to say Toda stuff isn't reliable on the track especially since Toda and Mugen work togather to make the Formula 3 & 4 engines and the 5Zigen civic & integras use Toda engines in endurance racing.

I'd say the main reason Mugen isn't recommend is because of the high price and lack of internal parts when someone wants to build a fast NA engine. Quality is top notch and they produce parts that sell in greater quantity like exhausts, shift *****, than speciality parts like cams or pistons which sell in much smaller quantities.

 

I did not mean that the Toda camshafts specifically were unreliable. However, once you introduce them to a B18C engine, they put a LOT of stress on other internals, thus resulting in a less reliable engine setup.

BTW, I thought we were just talking about Toda's B-series engine applications. If this is a bragging contest between Toda and Mugen, sure Toda builds Formula 3 and 4 engines, but when was the last time they built an F1 engine like Mugen has been doing off and on for years? Never.

 

No no no, no bragging contest, just a simple question

 

I don't know why you think installing cams would place stress on an engine especially if the valve train is upgraded to match the cams.

I mentioned the F4 example because the F4 engine IS based on the B18C and is relevent since it runs spec B cams and is an endurance engine. The F3 engine is based on the H22A. Last I checked none of us have F1 engine under our hoods

 

its just like wearing name brand clothes...u gotta have the top name brand to be cool?

 

EP, does the Mugen cap burns when the car is hot?

 

I think any time you increase the power of an engine, you are stressing the components more. Change the cams and the force of combustion is increased, putting more stress on the pistons, rods, crank, and their associated bearings. It's not like it's free power with no trade-off. Then you start cranking the rev limiter to 9000, 9100, 9500(!) rpm and the stress rises exponentially. Everyone who runs cams seems to raise their limiter, since that is what the cams require to make their best power.

You also can't assume that the stock parts are strong enough to handle more stress with no penalty in reliability. There is an engineering margin built into OEM parts that is reduced when you put more stress on them. That means more chance of failure. How much chance...I don't know.

I think Andy would agree with me that we have seen some pretty frequent failures of Type R engines in the past few years (mine included). Taz Harvey was telling me how at Sears Point a few weeks ago, RealTime went through five engines because they kept blowing up. One of them was even borrowed from Mike Buzzetti. They are not bulletproof, and the internals are very highly stressed. I think the large safety margin of OEM or near-OEM is a good thing to have as it greatly reduces my level of mental stress.



[Modified by Gansan, 11:40 AM 8/2/2001]


[Modified by Gansan, 11:45 AM 8/2/2001]


[Modified by Gansan, 11:58 AM 8/2/2001]

 

Poopie does not smell. However until somebody smells it.

That's so zen like!

 

Yeah, even though I am a big fan of Mugen, I am still hesitating in thinking about their parts to due the $$$$.
Their parts are usually double in the price of the same in other brandnames with similar performance, but quality wise is great.
However, take CAI for example, you can't fit it in unless you remove the A/C, as described on Kingsmotorsports, and a friend's Mugen 4-2-1 header hangs too low and scratch the ground and completely destroyed it. So these mugen parts are not practical in terms of street cars that rarely go on tracks, and for drag purposes, they don't have good outputs.
For the same price I can get a spoon and Spoon these days race more road races on stock Honda touring cars than Mugen which focus more on other types of racing like F-1....etc. If money allows, the only upgrade from mugen that I will buy is headgasket, Twin-loop and a valve cover just to look good.

 

i sure hope this doesnt turn into the chevy vs. ford battle..

 

I love my MUGEN oil cap!
oh yeah...and my Mugen lowdown suspension is one of the best suspensions I have seen.
Quality is excellent. Price is high...but like anything else, if you cant afford it or dont
want to pay the high price, then dont.......You can always try to find it for sale used

 

Realtime racing and ANY race team have problems with engine reliability because they are running the motors at WOT for several hours - which is pushing the envelope waaaaay more than any of us would (unless you are a total idiot and wreck your motor from abuse).

I disagree with the cams/force of combustion argument - that's the whole point of balancing the motor. If you change your car from stock - some rebalancing of the stock internals (and perhaps lightening) should be all you need to have a rock-solid reliable motor - otherwise you should upgrade to better parts - like Mugen.

 

Mugen stuff is great. I have Mugen pedals, oil cap, radiator cap, and, thermostat on my R and love the OEM-like fit and finish of all the parts. As far as Toda and JUN go. They're great companies too. It's just that Mugen believes the R is so well tuned in stock form, that there is no need for internal mods on an R spec B18C. The King motorsports ITR uses all of Mugens bolt-on parts and performs up to par with some cars that have internal work as well.

I've seen more engine failure firsthand in n/a Honda applications in the last two years than than ever before. And it's greatly due to the increasing popularity of Spec B's, C's and JUN III's. I honestly believe that out of all the ITR's that have a full aftermarket valvetrain/cams/ECU upgrade only half of them actually perform like they're supposed too. I've seen way too many 14 second Toda or JUN equipped cars for it to be just a hunch. What cracks me up, is that a lot of street racers nowadays, spend $4 to 5k on engine mods, thinking they will get into the 12's all-motor. Only to get their *** handed to them by a hatchback with a stock GSR motor and a ZEX kit! Keep it simple. ITR's aren't cars that were meant to be torn down the way many people do. Make sure your mechanic has the expertise neccessary to effectively increase the horsepower in your car without destroying your precious motor!

 

Taz Harvey was telling me how at Sears Point a few weeks ago, RealTime went through five engines because they kept blowing up.

dammit. i hate having those kind of weekends.

er...wait...i've never had *THAT* kind of weekend...

-k-b0t, who'd like to try and stay clean with a "zero engines blown" record..

 

Pushing your engine at WOT for hours is what you do at any weekend track event. I've done it to my stock-engined street car for over three years and approximately 35 weekends. No rebuilds, no special gas, or anything like that. The car is still super reliable and has never failed me. Same goes for other people running stock engines. My point is OEM engines rarely blow up because of the larger safety margins built into stock engines.

Tell me how balancing a motor reduces the effect of stress resulting from increasing power. Each combustion event puts about 1 metric ton of force through the piston, rod, and crank (according to Mr. Ichishima of Spoon). Balancing will slightly reduce stress resulting from any imbalances of the engine when turning at high rpm, but that doesn't have anything to do with transmitting additional power through the internals. And no amount of balancing will keep you ahead of the rising stresses that come from running higher rpms.

 

Mugen

I just wish I had the money for a twin-loop!