well, i guess ive reached the stage of recovering from bassism and i want the sq to be 100%

does it start with the h/u? should i uopgrade that before anything else?
also, amps that are good for sq would be nice to know, and what about crossovers, my friend has an audio control eqx but says he cannot tune it, shouldi use this and make a proffesional tune it for me?

AND WHAT ABOUT WIRES? WILL UPGRADING MY RCA'S AND SPEAKER WIRES HELP?
thanks

 

you can tune any system if you have a good ear otherwise bring it in to someone average price will be about 150-200 for a full tuning session

as far as hu goes eclipse would be my suggestion
amps alpine, jl audio or xtant
audio control for eq and x over (eqs and 6xs)
jl audio, eclipse, diamond, Memphis, alpine subs
jl audio, focal, diamond, Memphis, eclipse components

 

Are you trying to buy everything at the same time or put a system together in stages. If you are planning to build in stages do you already have equipment you can use (other than the EQX)? The EQX is a decent unit and is easy to tune (if you have the ear). Having a shop tune it for you will not necessarily make it sound good - depends on the tuner and if they use a RTA.

I've always believed that speakers are the most important part of the system provided that everything else is of decent quality. Installation is also extremely important. Speaker placement can make a huge difference in tonal balance, staging, imaging and depth.

Audio cables do make a difference if you go with one of the home audio brands (i.e. Straightwire, MIT, Audioquest to name a few). All of the top SQ guys in competition use the home audio brands.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaDriver4Life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've always believed that speakers are the most important part of the system provided that everything else is of decent quality. Installation is also extremely important. Speaker placement can make a huge difference in tonal balance, staging, imaging and depth.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with you here...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaDriver4Life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Audio cables do make a difference if you go with one of the home audio brands (i.e. Straightwire, MIT, Audioquest to name a few). All of the top SQ guys in competition use the home audio brands.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree with you here...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xXxS_SxXx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">average price will be about 150-200 for a full tuning session
</TD></TR></TABLE>are you serious?! man thats like all of my set!
i'd never pay that amount of money for 'services'
my friend is a proffesional installet and even if he didn't do it for me wherever i buy the equipment from should install AND tune the system to my perfection FREE, if not for a 'beer' money given to the installer

i guess jamaica is different in this way but even the guy i said would tune the audiocontrol eqx would charge me only about the equivalent of 20 us dollars....

on topic now, i kinda wanted to not have to but an expensive head unit, especially because thats what thieves usually go after.
i was gonna use the pioneer 'tuner 3' cassette radio with a pioneer changer (not fm modulated) and hopefull make up for a better sq h/u with other components of my setm ie amps, crossovers, wires, speakers.

if not, what can i cut corners with?

ill be doing it in small stages ad this is what i have planned (sorry for the long post, my sensible personality has taken over again)

existing system:kicker cvr in bass tube,blaupunkt 200rms to it, mb quart 4's in dash,6' in box on parcel shelf
near future plans:
1.pioneer 200w 2channel for the mb quarts (50rms i think or 100)
2.upgrade 6's in box to 8inch mb quarts not in box put in secured parcel shelf (secured with dry wall screws but not covering all of trunk space)
3,upgrade sub to punch 12 inch in sealed 2 cubic foot box in trunk (?!yay or nay?)
4.replace pioneer with a good 4channel amp for mids
5. replace blaupunkt with jbl 800 watt sub amp

comments please, im turning over a new leaf, only sensible posts from now on

btw: i have easy acces to all the products i have listed used, basically i have heard all of them seperately in my friends' cars and getting them will be cheap and easy so please bear with the equip, i cannot afford any expensive brands brand new and alot of the sq speakers are expenive in jamaica

 

rcurley55....are you saying that cables don't make a difference or that home audio brands are not better?

 

I don't want to open up a can of worms on this issue, if anyone wants to hear it get duked out, go to carsound.com and do a search and you will be reading for days.

If you are not getting noise in your system, then you are doing fine. UTP is really the way to go if you are not going balanced or using optical cable. As far as speaker wires are concerned - it's more snake oil, and smoke and mirrors then anything else.

I've actually heard competitors admit that they put in super expensive cables not because they perform better, but they hope that dropping a name brand on the judge will affect their perception of how the system sounds, there by increasing their scores.

I've also seen winning SQ guys use wires from knukonceptz. Alot of guys are sponsored, and use what ever it is that they can get for free/cheap.

I'll tell you what, I will say this - you can buy very expensive cables that are intended for the home audio arena and you can do the same for car audio. People spend more money on one run of Kimber wires then I did on my whole system.

The end test is if you can actually hear the difference - and marketing people swear up and down you do - Personally in a car, I don't think the investment provides any performance gains. You pay more for cosmetics and a name then you actually do performance.

I build my own RCA cables using some Canare Star Quad microphone cable - I use some $1 connectors for my RCA's and Neutrik XLR connectors. I can build a set of RCA cables that are not measurable any different from the best you can buy on the market for $20 for a 5 meter pair.

You can do the same by going to belden and getting some of their cable - the options really are endless. I've seen people take a pair of 18 ga wires, twist them together, and VOILA - RCA cables and they work just fine.

Ask yourself this when you buy really espensive wires - are you paying for actual technology that increases the performance or usability of the wires, or are you paying for marketing and packaging?

Start to think about the car audio environment - do you think that you can hear the difference between wires when driving down the freeway at 70 mph? If you think you can, you are crazy IMO - the noise floor is just too high. I've always said, never buy the cheapest product, but really evaluate if you think you need the most expensive.

 

I never said to buy ultra-expensive cables in my post so don't mislead the forum in regards to my statements. The manufacturers I mentioned make excellent cables at affordable prices. Besides, I didn't mention any prices or specific suggestions because I had no idea what goals and budget basshead had. If he wanted more information I would gladly elaborate. He asked a general question so I gave him a general answer.

As for hearing the difference......if you can't then you don't have a very good ear. Granted the noise floor in cars is relatively high so I do agree on not going all out on cables but the key is to match your system with the right cable. IMO, cables can make same differences in sound quality as speaker placement - just not to the same extent. If your system is too bright then go with a cable that has a warmer character. If your system seems too flat then go with a cable that will give you more detail. You can still hear these kind of differences even at 70 MPH unless you have one of those super loud exhaust systems that roar at 100db. With my system, I am extremely familiar with the overall character so I will able to pick up the slightlest change in sound. I know the strengths and weaknesses so when I try out a new cable or other tweak, I'll know if it's worth keeping.

In the end I could care less about the technology in the cable.....that's not what I'm buyuing it for. What I do care about is how it performs in my system and if it negatively or positively affects the overall sound.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaDriver4Life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I never said to buy ultra-expensive cables in my post so don't mislead the forum in regards to my statements. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Whoooaaahh partner, slow down...I have not quoted you until this point, I simply posted my independent opinion - which you asked about....I didn't throw words in your mouth, so don't over-read my posts - It's simply my opinion.

So let's get things straight....I never said you told anyone to buy anything....my post was directed at the whole board, not just you - the word "you" in the above describes the reader...that's it.

With that out of the way....

Now, the name MIT cables got thrown around - go and check their website ( http://www.mitcables.com ) and you will see that they have 4 lines of speaker cables, the cheapest starting out at 200 and the most expensive line starting at $5000

If you can hear the difference and you have golden ears, then go ahead and spend the money if that makes you happy. If you really think that wire is as important as where you physically place speakers, I feel bad for you, b/c you have gotten swallowed by a marketing storm.

If you really feel they are equally as important, that would mean that you would give up one for the other....I'll take speaker placement any day over some strands of copper/silver.

I still think it's more psycho-acoustics then physics.....and I guess we will just agree to disagree. This one has been argued as much as the RC amp challenge...

During SQ comps, judges provide competitors with suggestions on how to change their system. Compeitors have gone home, come back the next day, see the same judge, explain how they made the suggested changes and what a enormous difference it made - yet in reality, NO changes to the system have been made.

The judges have then given them praise on how much better their system sounds today rather then yesterday with the "changes" - the only changes are upstairs - the mind is a very powerful thing.

So HondaDriver4Life, what's in your system, and what cables are you running out of curiosity?

 

Wow long topic so if I missed anything sorry I didn't read.

The short and skinny on wires.

The audio signals used in cars (which are very slow) and the distance of the wire runs makes the cable almost irrelivant.

Companies make huge money on the cable myth.

Obviously you don't want to run crap wires in your car. What constitues crap? If the cable is to small for the current it will need to carry then it is crap. For shielded wires if it has poor shielding then it is possible to get noise induced in the cable.

Other than that your paying for a myth.

If you have a more specific question feel free to ask.

I have read RC explanation and I think he doesn't fully understand. I am curious as to what kind of degree he holds. Smart guy though.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can build a set of RCA cables that are not measurable any different from the best you can buy on the market for $20 for a 5 meter pair.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually their might be a difference but the difference would be on a scope at frequencies outside the audio spectrum.

The mismatch in impedences between the two connected device will have the largest effect. It will out wiegh the cable differences by far.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 5:34 PM 7/10/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually their might be a difference but the difference would be on a scope at frequencies outside the audio spectrum.

The mismatch in impedences between the two connected device will have the largest effect. It will out wiegh the cable differences by far.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Damnit!!! You got me

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaDriver4Life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for hearing the difference......if you can't then you don't have a very good ear. Granted the noise floor in cars is relatively high so I do agree on not going all out on cables but the key is to match your system with the right cable. IMO, cables can make same differences in sound quality as speaker placement - just not to the same extent. If your system is too bright then go with a cable that has a warmer character. If your system seems too flat then go with a cable that will give you more detail. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe you should try RC's challenge. If you think that you can hear the difference between speaker wire, assuming the wire can handle the load on it, in a home, you are good. To hear it in a moving car, you must be a god. Have you tried a blind test?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by basshead &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">are you serious?! man thats like all of my set!
i'd never pay that amount of money for 'services'
my friend is a proffesional installet and even if he didn't do it for me wherever i buy the equipment from should install AND tune the system to my perfection FREE, if not for a 'beer' money given to the installer

i guess jamaica is different in this way but even the guy i said would tune the audiocontrol eqx would charge me only about the equivalent of 20 us dollars....

on topic now, i kinda wanted to not have to but an expensive head unit, especially because thats what thieves usually go after.
i was gonna use the pioneer 'tuner 3' cassette radio with a pioneer changer (not fm modulated) and hopefull make up for a better sq h/u with other components of my setm ie amps, crossovers, wires, speakers.

if not, what can i cut corners with?

ill be doing it in small stages ad this is what i have planned (sorry for the long post, my sensible personality has taken over again)

existing system:kicker cvr in bass tube,blaupunkt 200rms to it, mb quart 4's in dash,6' in box on parcel shelf
near future plans:
1.pioneer 200w 2channel for the mb quarts (50rms i think or 100)
2.upgrade 6's in box to 8inch mb quarts not in box put in secured parcel shelf (secured with dry wall screws but not covering all of trunk space)
3,upgrade sub to punch 12 inch in sealed 2 cubic foot box in trunk (?!yay or nay?)
4.replace pioneer with a good 4channel amp for mids
5. replace blaupunkt with jbl 800 watt sub amp

comments please, im turning over a new leaf, only sensible posts from now on

btw: i have easy acces to all the products i have listed used, basically i have heard all of them seperately in my friends' cars and getting them will be cheap and easy so please bear with the equip, i cannot afford any expensive brands brand new and alot of the sq speakers are expenive in jamaica</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

If you really want SQ, decide how strict do you want to be - decide if you care how it images/stages or is it just sounding accurate from a tonal perspective all that matters.

I'll put more in a while....I have an idea...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe you should try RC's challenge. If you think that you can hear the difference between speaker wire, assuming the wire can handle the load on it, in a home, you are good. To hear it in a moving car, you must be a god. Have you tried a blind test?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Their is no difference, you wouldn't even see it on a scope. Not at audio frequencies anyways.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Their is no difference, you wouldn't even see it on a scope. Not at audio frequencies anyways.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think it will be seen on a scope, but impossible to hear. Remember that high freq inductance thing with cables(forget what it is called right now ). The difference would not be audible unless he can hear variances of less than .1 db at 20khz, where humans are not very sensitive.

 

rcurley55......first of all, I did not state that cabling is as important as speaker placement. Please read carefully. I stated that cables can affect your system in the same way as speaker placement but NOT to the same extent. Cables rank last in system performance but I still believe in their worth.

Older MIT cables or used units can be purchased at discounted prices. You just have to shop around. The same can be said for the other manufacturers. My personal recommendation, Straightwire, has speaker cable as cheap as $1/foot and interconnects as low as $30/meter. I don't believe in spending extraordinary amounts of cash on cable unless you have the system that can benefit from it. Unfortunately, I have never been able to afford something that would benefit from $5K speaker cables so I buy what best matches my components. In the end, it always seems to equate to 10% of my system cost.

It's not about having a golden ear - it's about being "in tune" to your particular system so that you can pick up on any change, large or small. On a new system, it's difficult for me to hear differences in cables mainly because I'm not familiar with the sound characteristics and everything needs time to break-in. As I spend more time with the system and listen for strengths and weaknesses based on what I like to hear, I can determine where changes need to be made. This is the process I use to evaluate any new product in my system. I don't follow a scientific process - I just trust my ears and listen for what I like and don't like.

As for my system, I've retired from car audio and now focused on home audio but here's what my last car audio system (old school stuff) consisted of. Kenford amps and Pyle Speakers. I used a Radio Shack tape deck and EQ for the front end. For cables I used telephone wire. JK....

Home Audio Setup

Digital Source: Sony DVP-NS999ES
Power/Preamp Source: Rotel RSX-1065
Front: B&W Nautilus 805
Center: B&W Nautilus HTM2
Rear: B&W CDW650
Sub: Velodyne HGS10.II
Cables: Custom Power Cords, Straightwire for everything else

The last car audio system I had was installed in a '94 Ford Probe. Here are the details:

Head Unit/Digital Source: Alpine 1310/5957
Processor: Alpine 3681
Amps: Rockford Punch 4080, Punch 100 (2)
Front Speakers: Canton CS218
Rear Speakers: MB Quart QM130.03KX
Subs: JL Audio 10W3 (2)
Speaker Cable: Audioquest Type 4
Interconnects: Audioquest Quartz
Digital Cable: Audioquest Optilink
Power Cable: Phoenix Gold

I'm curious too, you've had the same equipment in your sig for well over a year now......when are you going to install everything?

 

basshead......sorry that the thread got off-topic. I had to defend myself a little.

I don't think you've mentioned what car you have. That would help with recommendations. The pioneer head unit/changer combo is a good start. The MBQs you have....are they a 3-way set? If so, you should have the set installed in the same general location. For example, the 6" drivers could go in the doors with the 4" mids and tweeters in the kickpanel area in a custom pod. Also some cars can accomodate all of the drivers in the door with some custom work. What is the exact model for your Punch 12 sub? 2 cubic feet might be too big - I can give you a better idea on the proper enclosure size based on the specific model you have.

The equipment you listed sounds like it should give you a solid base to build upon. With everything properly installed, it should sound decent. As far as cutting corners - I don't think you'll need to. Make sure your power cable is the right gauge. I would run 4 gauge from the battery to a dist. block and then run 8 gauge to each amp. As far as speaker and interconnect cables go......what's available in Jamaica? Can you order stuff from the states?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaDriver4Life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">rcurley55......first of all, I did not state that cabling is as important as speaker placement. Please read carefully. I stated that cables can affect your system in the same way as speaker placement but NOT to the same extent. Cables rank last in system performance but I still believe in their worth.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You got me there...I just saw it. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on the cabling issue....I don't think either of us will change our minds.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm curious too, you've had the same equipment in your sig for well over a year now......when are you going to install everything?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Horns and the head unit went in this week

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaDriver4Life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">basshead......sorry that the thread got off-topic. I had to defend myself a little.

</TD></TR></TABLE>no prob man!
ok, i drive a hatchback swift, it has 4inch spaces in the dash facing up on the windscreen, ill have the 1 way coaxial quarts in there, i want them to be as loud as possible....

id have to build kicks if im going to install in the doors but that will be in the future, for now i just want sub, 4's and 6 or 8's in the parcel shelf....
the punch is just a normal 12 inch but i think im going to stick with 2 comp vr's, my friend has 2 in his starlet getting about 250rms and the bass is more than enough and sounds tight too, but i think ill seal em'

i WOULD really like to keep it simple, there is stock locations for 4 beside the rear seats facing each other, im thinking of getting 2 more mb's for there as i really don't want kicks in the door as everyone will see them....

what i am really concerned about is the eqx and the amps, i want (like vteg said in my other thread) 4 100 watt mids on one amp and a sub amp for the subs but cannot seem to make up my mind

anywho, most of tis is mostly ranting until i get back my car soon....as far as auge id run TWO 4awg from the batt to the amps, 8 gawg has no place in my car as all my ground wires, alt, starter, etc etc will be 4awg...

as far as ordering that is a big no no, most of the stuff ill use will be used and i can't see myself spending a bunch on interconnects, i might even make my own

anyway, the plans i have will sound good just needed some encourage ment, if you notice im finished with the crazy posts

 

JOMO,

Putting this alternate discussion aside....if you want good SQ, remember to keep it simple. Alot of the best sounding cars only have 5 SQ drivers. I would just focus on the principal that less can be more, and really think ahead on what it is that you want, make some decisions, then stick with the plan.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it will be seen on a scope, but impossible to hear. Remember that high freq inductance thing with cables(forget what it is called right now ). The difference would not be audible unless he can hear variances of less than .1 db at 20khz, where humans are not very sensitive.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry to re-bring this back up but for the short runs in a car and within the audio frequency you would need an accurate scope to see the difference. (You would be measureing micro volts so I exaggerated on the scope a little shoot me). After all what causes the difference? The impedence of the wire and the inductance of the wire and the resistance of the wire. So why is a cable frequency dependent? Where does the impedence and inductance come from? If I measure from one end of a cable to the other I get 0 ohms. So where does the 50 ohm rating of RCA's come from. Well a coaxial wire or two speaker wires can be modeled by a resistor in series with an inductor in parallel with a resistor that is in parallel with a cap. Since resistors are not frquency dependent then we see were are frequency dependents comes from. The inductor and the cap. So how can a coaxial wire be modeled this way?

What does a capacitor look like?
Two parralel conductors with a dielectric (insulator) in between.

What does a coax or speaker wire look like?
Two parralel conductors with a insulator (dielectric) in between.

So now if coax wires are designed to have a 50 0hm impedence what is left to change. You could change the the conductivity of the wire per unit length. So now I make my resistance of my wire go from .001 to .0001 so how much of a voltage drop do you think you will see? Typical radios run a 4 volt signal.



Modified by nsxxtreme at 12:38 PM 7/11/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So now if coax wires are designed to have a 50 0hm impedence what is left to change. You could change the the conductivity of the wire per unit length. So now I make my resistance of my wire go from .00001 to .000001 so how much of a voltage drop do you think you will see? Typical radios run a 4 volt signal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the voltage drop on a 20' run (just a random length)would be very very little i asked 3 of the electrical engineers in my office and they all said the voltage drop would be so minuet that its should not be a factor

 

good wires, decent equipment of your choice, a 4volt output head unit, and most importantly..sealed kick panels. as long as its tuned well, it will sound awesome. just my $.02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 10keveryday &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good wires, decent equipment of your choice, a 4volt output head unit, and most importantly..sealed kick panels. as long as its tuned well, it will sound awesome. just my $.02</TD></TR></TABLE>THANKS