I found it kind of interesting that someone had the ***** to run 16:1 compression and end up setting a new all motor record.

Here's the kicker: at the redline he uses, there isn't enough filling time and recovery time to draw in enough air so the compression assists in the complete burn of the intake charge up top. Wild!

and he does it without going kaboom!

cheers

PS had a nice chat with John at Hi Tech today: as an aside he has a customer that dropped in Todas into a stock compression ITR (that's 10.6:1 ) that lost power across the rpm band. I'm sure that won't make the pages of Honda Tech Type R forum.

 

which cams were they using in the car?


Ross- who fears D!

 

You read the SCC article too ......

Two completely different approaches to power with the R&D guys and the AEBS guys ..... both get the job done.

I like how they only claim 250 at the wheels with a 2.6L motor ....... especially when someone we know puts down almost as much as that, with about half the work!!

 

doh, the Toda lovers aren't gonna like that. I' m anxious to see what the explanation err excuses will be for loss of power.. Perhaps it wasn't tuned right?

 

The guy also had stock header/exhaust/cat as well if it is the same car I heard of ......

 

Toda this Toda that, common people, everybody knows that when you change the characteristics of the motor you have to compensate for the losses and gains. Fuel, timing, compression, etc. Just droping the cams in isn't completely a bolt on procedure. Because you have to worry about fuel, ign. timing, cam timing, compression, etc.
I am sure the there are people out there that drop these cams in and think that they made power, but in reality they lost power, because they didn't tune them properly.
EVIL

 

That's a pretty lame statement to make.

 

MD runs Toda cams, so he is not bashing them .......

 

Actually, I did make a thread:


https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=52212

But comparing stock dynos with the aem cai dyno and my latest one, I am noticing that the stiffer valve-springs are hurting me a little... But the most noticable problem is that I am using the stock header, cat, and exhaust. I'll post up the differences with the new header when I get it (hopefully this coming week).

There was a similar thread here:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=52587



[Modified by Black R, 4:26 PM 7/18/2001]

 

Tell them to make sure the cams are at TDC, sounds like they didn't get the timing right. Most probably the car is close to stock and they expect 40hp with just cams and exhaust.

 

I wonder whut Uncle Lip(Mr.Toda himself) will have to say about this!

I thought for max performance with the spec B's a VAFC is recommended!

 

so what..i run 14.0:1 with thirty lbs of boost...i make 700 hp at 1600rpm and 2000tq ...dont worry its a diesel..no vtec..

 

what the 6 o'clock news didn't say : with that much overlap on the Toda cams do you actually believe that the compression stays the same?

The label on the Toda cams should not say "racing use only" but also "must be purchased with Toda 0.6mm head gasket or high compression pistons". No-one should be allowed to buy these cams without signing a waiver saying they have read the warning label.

B.Phat R: I'm not bashing these cams (fellow Canuck) . As Rick (TypeR0207) said I have a set. Flapping timing belts and need for compression are just 2 heads up things folks should know. This is why we are on a tech board..presumably to warn or assist fellow enthusiasts about any impending potholes they might face. The fact that when someone runs into a problem is dismissed quickly as lack of experience or with a smug arrogance is of no help. The fact that people who have a problem aren't willing to admit it becasue they may feel stupid to do so is also a lack of maturity in my books. So if it's lame to you so be it. It's odd that you called sgt arrogant at one time for pointing out knowledge based on firsthand experience.

Don't get me wrong when you have the package that accepts the long cam timing , the power just keeps on going.

As for what cams L'Natural runs the article states proprietary R&D cams with 12.19mm lift and 310 degrees (@ 1mm ?) duration...certainly not overwhelming compared to Jun Type 3's and Toda Spec C's. The AEBS guys run VTEC cams with 12.7mm lift and 345 degrees duration..now that is somethin' else. They seem to be more conventional with: 1.7 rod ratio, 13.5 compression, and a stroked 2.0L. Big cam profile, big compression, big stepped header /header collector...now that's a combination we all are familiar with and compatible to the Toda formula. L'Natural's 16:1 and relatively milder cam timing rings of Endyn's philosophy.

 

No ill will intended there M.D. I just do not like blanket statements based on subjective opinions - I am a man of science and believe in statistics (which is sorely lacking in this hobby of ours). Whatever happened to sample size and significance???

My experience with Spec Bs is that they do make drop in power - but not their ultimate power.

I am in the process of having Wiseco/Endyn rollerwaves put in along with forged rods and a new balanced crank.

Hopefully I will be able to document some empirical evidence of my own shortly.

p.s. howzitgoing eh??


[Modified by Big Phat R, 4:40 PM 7/18/2001]

 

seems a little strange that John got those results or at least heard of those results about the toda spec Bs. After paying him several trips there, the other welder there, I think his name is Chris, was determined to use those in his Si. Oh well, I will post up some dyno plots of the cams in my old Si. Just need to dig them up. for now, brb!

 

John did not get those results. He just mentioned in passing that he has an ITR customer ,who shall remain nameless and made 13 whp with his header and ITR cams, lost power across the board even after tuning just after the Todas went in. It makes sense to me that if you add big overlap and bleed off a lot of cylinder pressure out the exhaust valve, you will get a dynamic compression loss with big duration cams...which can be compensated by adding static compression. This is not news to anyone I hope.

 

The TODA 0.6mm gasket is the same thickness as stock, so it won't increase compression.

 

BTW this is the end of me commenting about what John and I had in conversation as I'm sure he didn't want me to say anything about them. I apologise to John for breaching a privacy expectation and I won't do it again for sure.

I just stated this to make sure people are warned fairly about Todas (or any long duration big overlap cams for that matter).As most members who know me remember: I experienced a lack of enthusiastic gains firsthand after Toda installation (10.4:1 CR) and have campaigned for a balanced review of their performance. It was meant to be a technical discussion about compression loss and the reasons for them in this situation...not a dissing of Toda cams so all of the owners who have them can jump on and post their dynos to prove me wrong. That would make this board very boring wouldn't it? no sharing of IDEAS? Trust me, Toda does not need anyone to run to their rescue. I felt it would cause less of reactionary response if someone who owns Todas and likes them posts a critique of them rather than say a Jun owner or Crower or Skunk2 owner...so i hope you guys get the spirit of this post. It IS called honda TECH.





[Modified by Michael Delaney, 5:15 PM 7/18/2001]

 

ahh, the reason I wanted to find my dyno plots is b/c I dropped in spec Bs in a stock b16A motor with nothing other than too stiff valvesprings and ti retainers. Motor was stock. I had max gains of 15whp just by dropping in the cams with only cam gear tuning on stock ECU!!!! I didn't lose power. Just wanted to say that. But of course, you can't expect to get big gains by dropping in cams. Everything has to work with one another and you can't skip steps to get power.

 

I stand corrected 0.4 mm gasket. thanks

 

So you gained 15whp? I lost 2whp!

I'm guessing you already had i/h/e? I still have stock h/e... We'll see how it fares when I get h/e on the car...

 

Ardy,

we degreed those cams on installation to Toda specs. I tuned the **** out of them with my cam gears and we lost 4 whp up top.I retarded intake cam timing and got no gains. The midrange was awe inspiring but after 7000 rpm VTEC I did not see the 180-185 whp I was expecting. Oh yeah to my detriment I had USDM DC 4-1 as well as only 10.4:1 CR.

cheers

 

I had a dc header and aem intake w/ DC exhuast. No fuel, spark or anything else. I tried to tune with a stand alone ecu, but it was too hard, and the stock ecu made more power. Note: I saw the big gains when I removed the stock cat with a straight pipe, that's where the 15whp came. I was muffled with the cat w/ 7-10whp gains.

 

I guess that's not wierd. AKH's ITR didn't even start when the cams were installed and dialed in at dynamic. Everything was installed and dialed in. The gears had to be adjusted in order for the car to idle and for gains a fuel controller had to be installed. Every motor is different. One thing I learned though is that the portflow inners are way too stiff. I lost 7-10whp when the stock cams were put back in and lash was set back to stock spec. One silly question, but I have to ask, you set the lash to spec with toda's right??? Had to ask.

 

16:1 CR, cams, valves...ok, ok, but no one seems to be talking about combustion chamber design and the type of gas he's using.
People see 16:1 CR and get a shock due to the value of the number... there is a lot more to that, someone has already mentioned the all-mighty diesel engine.