which one is bigger? which one do you sugesst? its for my 1995 integra ls motor.

 

14b is a little bigger, and will spool suposedly pretty well on d series, and will spool up to 7000 or so on a bseries as well...dsm's redline high 6s i belive so i think you should be good, id stay away from the t25 though...but thats me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RedStarGsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">14b is a little bigger, and will spool suposedly pretty well on d series, and will spool up to 7000 or so on a bseries as well...dsm's redline high 6s i belive so i think you should be good, id stay away from the t25 though...but thats me.
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exactly

 

dms redline at 7k, 430CFM max flow during optimal conditions, based on the flowmap.

pretty good turbo.

 

how much would you guys pay for a 14b turbo? my local junk yard selling me one for $150, i think thats a little to much but im new to turbos so wat da hell...im a lost "wannabe booster child"

 

I payed $100 for one rebuilt less than 2000 miles ago, but I had been looking for one for that price for almost half a year. 150 is not bad as long as it is low miles and in good condition. I would never pay more than 150 for one and would be suspicious of the condition of one that was below $100.

 

anyone know how much higher you can go on the 14b before it starts dying out? no one likes to reply to my other threads

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RedStarGsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyone know how much higher you can go on the 14b before it starts dying out? no one likes to reply to my other threads </TD></TR></TABLE>

How much higher as in, boost-wise? Some DSM guys are running 18-20psi daily. So it's a pretty good turbo.

 

Umm... Either turbo is perfectly fine for the boost levels you'll run on a stock 1.6, 1.7, or 1.8L. They flow more than enough for a cool 7 or 8 psi up to and beyond 8500rpm, while providing spool-up much quicker than those pretentious 18gs in Greddy kits.

1g DSMs (14b) are usually capable of 16-18psi max, losing 1 or 2 pounds after ~6k. 2gs (T25) are closer to 15-17psi, and again start to wheeze after ~6k.

Many DSM guys don't bother selling their stock turbos after upgrading. They just throw em in their pile of other stock parts and move on. I'd suggest going on DSMtrader.com and emailing anyone with a "WTB - Big 16g" -type ad. Offer them $75 plus shipping for the stocker. Maybe even go on DSMTalk and DSMTuners and PM anyone who posts a new turbo review.

 

a stock 14b can push a 3000lb AWD car in to low 12's (12.1-5 or so) with aa good driver, and the supporting mods on a stock longblock.

 

Well, there are only a handful of 14b AWDs in the low 12s, and I'm not sure any of them weigh in at 3000lbs without the driver, and I'm fairly certain none of them are using a stock LONGblock. Shortblock yes, because 6-bolt 4g63s are the ****, but I'll swallow the remains of their first center diffs if any of them are running stock cams. I wouldn't be too shocked if they've had some head work too.

 

&gt;&gt;Umm... Either turbo is perfectly fine for the boost levels you'll run on a stock 1.6, 1.7, or 1.8L. They flow more than enough for a cool 7 or 8 psi up to and beyond 8500rpm, while providing spool-up much quicker than those pretentious 18gs in Greddy kits.&lt;&lt;

Ahh yes, but from the number of posts in your sig, you may not be aware of the severe "big turbo" fetish which aflicts many members of this board. ;-)

I'm in whole-hearted agreement with you, but I gave up trying to convince people...

 

Haha, I've heard it all before. I may be a newbie here, but...

I'll never forget when it was justified by "Well single turbo Rx7s run turbos bigger than Supras and they're only 1.3L. High-revving motors need big turbos!" LOL! Go clubsi!

 

DSM redline is at 7k with rpm limiter @7500.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dublocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DSM redline is at 7k with rpm limiter @7500.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, more accurately the tach redlines at 7k. The motor itself couldn't care less. Just like the rest of the motor, Mitsubishi over-engineered the valvetrain and then took certain steps to make sure it never reached its limits. In reality, anyone with a removed rev limiter could spin their motor to 7800rpm+ every time they got on it without causing any damage. I can say that with certainty because I did it for 2 years in my 91 Tsi AWD without ever having a single engine problem. Of course, Crysler made the trannies and stock they're incapable of shifting that high...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98CTRCoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

How much higher as in, boost-wise? Some DSM guys are running 18-20psi daily. So it's a pretty good turbo.
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The amount of boost your little turbo gauge reads is greatly dependent on how well your head flows. A honda vtec head will require much more air flow from the turbo to read 20psi in the intake manifold, than say a mitsubishi head. The DSM has more restriction and the air 'gets backed up' in the intake manifold more than with a b16 head or something like that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The amount of boost your little turbo gauge reads is greatly dependent on how well your head flows. A honda vtec head will require much more air flow from the turbo to read 20psi in the intake manifold, than say a mitsubishi head. The DSM has more restriction and the air 'gets backed up' in the intake manifold more than with a b16 head or something like that. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, that's one spin on it. Stock vtec cams have lots of overlap, which allows some boost to escape the combustion process altogether by flowing right out of the exhaust ports. 4g63s have larger valves and little overlap with abnormally high lift - typical turbo grinds. You might say that of the two, stock 4g63 heads are much, much more efficient for turbos. They aren't any more "backed up" than a normally aspirated stock vtec head - just purpose-built.

That being said, again, 4g63s also displace more than most of the turbocharged Honda motors, which at least makes up for the head difference.

Also, just for the record, we're talking about a B18b here, not any vtec motor.

 

Just curious, why does everyone call it a 14b? When ever I see 1st gen DSM turbos at the junkyard they all say TD-05 on them, are these the same turbos?

 

TD-05H is the size of the compressor housing, not the turbo. 13bs (automatic 1gs) also use TD-05Hs, and you can use it with a 16g or big 16g.

 

get the 14b if you can, the t25 would be ok, but the 14b would be your best bet. like was mentioned early, quite a few dsm'ers have ran 12's on the 14b.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rickbusarow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well, that's one spin on it. Stock vtec cams have lots of overlap, which allows some boost to escape the combustion process altogether by flowing right out of the exhaust ports. 4g63s have larger valves and little overlap with abnormally high lift - typical turbo grinds. You might say that of the two, stock 4g63 heads are much, much more efficient for turbos. They aren't any more "backed up" than a normally aspirated stock vtec head - just purpose-built.

That being said, again, 4g63s also displace more than most of the turbocharged Honda motors, which at least makes up for the head difference.

Also, just for the record, we're talking about a B18b here, not any vtec motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you have any firsthand experience with the mitsu motors at all, you've got more than me. I've never owned one, and everything I said is from 2nd or 3rd hand knowlege. However, I've read from several different sources that the mitsu heads flow poorly with stock porting. And I've never heard that they have large valves before. But for all I know maybe they do.

Also, I read plenty of posts here from turbo people running all sorts of vtec cams- they dont seem to have problems related to blowing their boost right out of their exhaust valves... I've never had vtek y0, so I cant say anything from experience.

Edit: just for the record, what ever I read on the mitsu heads is probably all based on the 2nd gen motor with the t25.


Modified by mos at 9:44 PM 6/7/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And I've never heard that they have large valves before. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Large compared to B-series motors, which is where our flow comes from.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, I read plenty of posts here from turbo people running all sorts of vtec cams- they dont seem to have problems related to blowing their boost right out of their exhaust valves... </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's because it's not because of wear and tear or even a design flaw - just the way things are for all normally aspirated cams. If you go on http://www.crower.com, for example, you'll see they have different Stage 2 cams for turbo, street, and race only applications, with the turbo grinds having much less duration and significantly higher lift. Really, it's quite simple. Duration is how long the valves are open, right? After a certain point, the durations of the exhaust and intake valves overlap so that there's an open path all the way from the IM to the EM. In a turbo car where the charge is pressurized instead of sucked in, therein lies the problem.

There is some legitimacy to the vtec world's insistance on large turbos - the inefficiency of vtec cams in regards to non-chemical FI.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Edit: just for the record, what ever I read on the mitsu heads is probably all based on the 2nd gen motor with the t25. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, 2g heads are significantly worse than 1g heads.

And yeah, I've got quite a bit of experience with Mitsus, although it seems I've spent most of my time working on the Crysler-built parts of DSMs. I've been attempting to daily-drive AWD DSMs for three years now, and in those three years I've seen a plethora of other, more reliable cars. Last fall I came upon a 92 VX, and just a little while ago I finally sold the last Talon I'll ever own and spent some of the money on a jdm b16a2 swap. Now I have 150% the gas mileage, half the acceleration, and countless millions of times the reliability.

 

&gt;&gt;and just a little while ago I finally sold the last Talon I'll ever own and spent some of the money on a jdm b16a2 swap. Now I have 150% the gas mileage, half the acceleration, and countless millions of times the reliability.&lt;&lt;

Heehee. And now you're already posting on the "FI" forum. So much for reliability!

FYI, I ran my junkyard turbo setup at the strip for the first time this weekend. At 7 psi, my little T25 got me to a 14.102 @ 99.8 mph. And that's in a relatively heavy (compared to a 5G vx) 6G hatch. And with my sorry drag racing self driving! I think it's easily a 13 second car with someone who knows how to drag race. From what I've read, that my $850 junkyard project is delivering superior performance compared to a greddy kit. And I think the D16/T25 match up is part of the reason.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rickbusarow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That's because it's not because of wear and tear or even a design flaw - just the way things are for all normally aspirated cams. If you go on http://www.crower.com, for example, you'll see they have different Stage 2 cams for turbo, street, and race only applications, with the turbo grinds having much less duration and significantly higher lift. Really, it's quite simple. Duration is how long the valves are open, right? After a certain point, the durations of the exhaust and intake valves overlap so that there's an open path all the way from the IM to the EM. In a turbo car where the charge is pressurized instead of sucked in, therein lies the problem.
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I understand how cams work, but I have a hard time believing that *ALL* cams designed for a n/a applicatioin would work poorly in a F/I application. Maybe you're right that the aftermarket crower cams for n/a would be a poor choice for F/I... makes sense to me.