For want of a better name, the Subaru thread contains the latest example of a brawl on H-T.

I'm all for a good fight and enjoy hurling invective online, but I haven't been able to get it up for any of the arguments around here lately. But that's my problem.

It kind of bothered me when a really good west coast guy (civicrr) alluded to the futility of having a good discussion on this board. I know what he meant and yet I really don't like hearing people like him write off the board like that.

There are many types of people on the board, and they CANNOT be expected to get along, let alone really understand each other all the time. I may be biased, but I think that some of the best threads I've ever participated in on H-T involved verbal abuse and name calling - and I thought it was all good.

Racers are in general an aggressive minded group, and you can expect that when they are discussing matters pertaining to their self interest that they will argue vigorously and ultimately not back down from figuratively trying to punt the other guy. And I'm serious about that. You might not do it on the track in your own car, but you likely would do it at the indoor karts, and you are even more likely to do it online with someone thousands of miles away when you feel they've provoked you.

I got to facilitate an SCCA Region rule making group this winter and it was moderately contentious, and when a couple of guys were getting shut down on their requests they threw a bit of **** and things got a little hot for a minute - so it's not that much different here on this board than it is in real life.

PLEASE DON'T GET BENT OUT OF SHAPE AND WALK AWAY FROM THIS BOARD IN A HUFF - this is one of the very best road racing boards that I've ever found, and if you and I don't make it better by participating and contributing it will be our fault tthat it's not the kind of place we wish it was.

Scott, who got some advice once from a long time racer on how to enjoy racing over the long run...he said: "stay out of the politics"...

 

the problem is usually due to peoples closeminded view about the topic. people forget that they are arguing about what the truth is. just becasue the believe in reason "a" they then argue to hell and back (resorting to any means) to win the argument. but they are completely closed off of listening to others for reason "b"

people need to realize that the truth is what matters, and it is not your own opinion that equates to the truth.

one quote that I like that regards to this is, "seek first to understand, then to be understood"

it happens all the time, someone says a vague comment, then like 5 people jump on board and flame the guy before even understanding what the original thing meant. they see the weakness in his post, then fully expand it to show off their big might.

you (scott),bpr (and many others) usually have very good argumenative qualities and dont become lametards when trying to understand facts about a topic.

the members of this board almost reward the flaming behaviour. if someone asked that canard/aero question that chad asked a couple weeks ago in the itr forum. if you didnt know chad or know of chad. then people would have flamed him for being a ricer and putting worthless crap on his car that just sees street duty. but of course the RRA board is aware of what chad does with his car.

Im starting to understand ignorance/stubbornness is a fact of life in our society. but usually the open minded ones get pretty far in whatever endeavors they have

 

i haven't started any name calling yet.....i'm not getting bent outta shape yet..... sacrasm meant in this post.....not in scott's but in mine....

 

Well said.

Sometimes a little emotion thrown into the mix gives you more insight than civility would. I was unphased by the jabs SBE and I threw back and forth. I don't take it personally and hope he wouldn't either. Were we all sitting in a room having the same conversation I imagine it would go very-much the same way. It's not pretty, nor glamorous, and certainly not something that sponsors and management types want to see, but it's reality.

 

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So true it hurts. At this point, I look forward more to painting the trim on my house than the next track weekend.

I have never been successful in changing anyone's mind/opinion on-line. I got close once over on the Altima board (why I keep going over there I'll never know. Someone stop me, please!). So close, yet so far.....

Matt&lt;---likes reading Scott's pontifications.

 

Scott (everyone),
Sometimes, I feel dispair & regrete about HC.

I spend a lot of time trying to make things better. (Right now my wife is wondering why I am not eating dinner with the family, again) I get frusterated (sp) by the willingness, or lack there of, of others to see the other side. It bothers me when meaningful dicussion is getting somewhere & people come in just to stir up ****. Perhaps it is because I feel some responsibilty in establishing or helping to establish the WCHC. Remember that it was Greg U., Greg M. & myself that asked NASA National to look @ it. In truth, Ryan was already aware of it. He needed some demand for it out here. It certainly wasn't/isn't my goal to ruin the ECHC. I often feel torn between what is good for NASA in general, the WC & the EC. Believe me, Ryan's goal is not to make the series a WC only thing. He really is trying to do what he feels is best for the majority of us. For the most part, I think he is headed the right way. I really do care about making the series friendly to the racers. I want them to win prizes & get good contingency sponsorship. I want rules that the majority will be happy with, not just live with. I want to go to the track & have fun. I want others to as well.

 

Very often this is how stuff gets done. Period.
If you take ten people and lock them in a room with a project, its very unlikely that the project will be completed without some poop getting thrown.
Things that are completed quickly and without argument or dissention typically lack passion and creativity. They are completed for the sake of "getting it done."

When Karl and I first wrote the Honda Challenge rules in '01, we agreed on the goal and direction. We then disagreed on at least 1/2 of everything else. This lead to lots of research and gathering of other opinions (mainly so we could prove each other wrong ). The end result was much better than it would've been if one of us had just written them and the other said "cool by me."

I grew up in a family where if someone was acting like a ******** it didn't take long for someone else to say "stop acting like a ********." Needless to say it was a very open communicative environment where thick skin was a boon. It was also a very loving and successful environment. No major dysfunction and nobody in therapy (at least to date).
Now... whether or not a person is truly acting like a ******** is totally subjective. But remember that an individual's perspective is that individual's reality. That's often where the poop starts flying.
If an individual truly believes he is right about something, and 20 other knowlegeables are telling him he's wrong, then it'd be beneficial for that person to rethink their position. But if they choose to take the "I'm right and everyone else is wrong." approach... Oh well.

Often our choices are to bail or to fight. What would the world be like if everyone bailed every time there is a disagreement?

The moral... Some of us think poop slinging is fun and very often actually accomplishes something. Though most folks focus on the times that it doesn't.

Scott, who rambled a bit.

 

civicrr.....

I really respect what you said.

I also share similar concerns... just in a little different way. I see a great series full of guys who enjoy each others company slowly falling apart and folks leaving. Many are/ will be leaving due to the new rules. Fact. This to me means I'm losing people that matter....

Franza has said it over and over..... it's just not the same.

I think if all boiled down these new rules were set in place 3000 miles away from where the actual racing was going on. Did the WC guys come witness a few weekends and take notes about what could be improved? No. Someone lifted a pen and changed peoples lives with out even getting their input. This is what pissed some off.

John- who thinks debate is healthy.

 

Scott, I hear you. I actually agree with you on this one. Problem is, I don't feel that it would be proper, given my postion, to sling poop.

Just because I don't actively participate in a thread doesn't mean I don't read it.

Again, I am not trying to screw up what you & Karl created. Believe it or not, I try to get the two sides to meet. Sometimes, I am more sucessful than others.

 

More rambling...

In the cases of things this board has seen around sponsor bashing and disagreements about running decals and such... I have never locked or deleted a post nor have I requested one be deleted.
While I may completely disagree with someone making statements here that could/would (for example) cost a series like the honda challenge some money and destroy a good bit of work done by individuals like myself, Karl, and/or the west coast crew, I believe the person making those statements has the right to make them. But I also have the right to tell that person that I think they're an ******* and that they're boffing up alot of hard work.

Thats freedom of speech. Plain and simple.

When does it go too far?
When should a thread be locked or deleted?
Well, in my opinion only when it becomes offensive or when someone involved requests that it be removed because they are hurt or embarassed by it (its their right to do so). Also when a product or business is being slurred with nothing to back up the claims.
Otherwise... No, I do not believe threads should be locked because people disagree or because someone gets pissed off. You never know if something good might have come from it.

PS - Everybody knows Brinson is just jealous of the nice cars the WC guys drive because his unemployed *** can't even afford to get his freakin' hood painted )
(see... that is what makes this forum great boys and girls).

Scott, who is now also unemployed and awaiting the sting of Brinson's wit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PS - Everybody knows Brinson is just jealous of the nice cars the WC guys drive because his unemployed *** can't even afford to get his freakin' hood painted )</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is some truth to that! I apologize for stirring the pot though. The series kicked *** last year and aside from car problems I thought Beaver Run rocked. I will disagree with Franza and John if they say it is not the same. You need to camp with us. We eat just as well, drink just as much, have just as much fun and race just as hard and close as last year. Period. I miss guys that left last year but now there are new people to meet. And that my friends is why changes that will cost us vastly more money concern me. That's the core of it without the Cali bashing (which is really just bashing of a few very self centered and seemingly wealthy people).

I will say this in closing. Anyone who is tempted to give up on the series based on a little arguing.
1) Grow a pair and get over it.
2) Come hang out with Lyonel Kent, myself and company at a race. We have spare chairs and beers (well a couple) for you. We generally have a tv to watch in car video on and way too much food. The series rocks as it is. You will see also that it does. Lets please not make many changes to a winning formula.

 

Hey guys,
Just FYI, I don't habor any ill feelings towards anybody. I understand that you like what you got. I do believe a lot of what is expressed has merit.

Maybe, I was just being a b**ch. Whatever, I am over it now.