Once and for all. Seriously.

Answer this poll only if you hold/have held a race license AND come from an HPDE background (lets say at least 5 events).

And I know some people will answer that shouldn't, but we'll still likely see a usable result.
Its time to demonstrate something to some folks out there <cough> that think they are pretty close to "racing" in advanced HPDE groups.

 

From another list...
HPDE is to Club Racing as Aerobatics is to Aerial Combat.

 

I might skew the results a little but my vote is not based on true "HPDE" events in name, but similar format marque and club "schools" with other organizations.

Ooops. Actually, I didn't skew the data at all.

K

 

Two more cents...

The big difference between racing and HPDEing isn't really tangible. To me, the biggest difference had nothing to do with the physics of getting the car around the track. I still try to drive "the line", my tires still get greasy after 20 minutes and my brakes still fade after two sessions. My fastest laptimes don't change much (not that I'm measuring them when HPDEing).

However, I do come out a race far more fatigued. It's the mental strain. Racing adds an entirely new dimension to the "on-track" experience. Now, in addition to driving well on my own (which is not an easy task to master), I have to juggle the actions of forty other drivers who are all trying to inhabit the same space as me. Not only do I have to play nice, I have to do it in such a manner that I come out in the lead. I can't take a lap or two to catch my breath and refocus - if I have to do that, I may as well throw in the towel.

I'm not sure that difference is entirely obvious to a non-racer. Like I said, it really isn't tangible. I think all a lot of HPDEers see is the obvious differences - like passing without point-bys (which by itself is no big deal for advanced drivers).

 

I can't vote, don't have the choice I want.. They arn't "completely" different for me, as I always "raced" in my HPDE's (don't tell my instructors).. Racing just meant I got to pass them w/ out a signal..

 

not sure if this thread is exactly relevent at this time, but i like digging up my own posts for the heck of it anyway.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=310466

anyway, i dont think this current thread/poll is all that necessary. scott, i think your point is valid, but quite frankly at this point its just being childish. that previous thread should have been stopped a long time before it did.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From another list...
HPDE is to Club Racing as Aerobatics is to Aerial Combat.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think it was HPDE is to Club Racing as solo flying is to aerial combat.

 

and are you just in secure or what? i'm uncompetition proven and i've never said i was a kick *** racer or anything. i'm just a cocky a$$ (to most of the world, but I just confident) HPD instructor that thinks he knows a lot about high performance driving tho. i can teach my students about HPD, but nothing about racecraft. i can equipped my students with the good principles and discipines about HPD that hopefully will allow them to explore and learn race craft some day. to further elaborate, good car control is the last step of HPD. once someone has attained that, everything else is easy. one can modify the line for optimal speed, or optimal race positioning. this is one reason national champ autox make great road racers. because great autox drivers have excellent car control skills. until the huge popularity of HPDE in the last 10-15 years, you never really got on track unless you raced. but now there are lots HPDE for one to hone their skills. i'm a firm believe a racer should acquire good car control skills before they think about going wheel to wheel. there are many people that go w2w too soon, and they either don't do well, or they crashed and get out of the sport. the main advantage of HPDE is you can always get a passenger to help you; ideally a qualified instructor. a knowledgable guy can reduce the learning curve so much. there are so many variable in the learning curve... i've experieced *many* of it in my extended duration in HPDE. i experienced many same obstacles/set backs and bumps that my students go through. that's why i know exactly how i can get them over it. despite my lack of w2w competition, i've been able to give some racer friends advice.

HPDE isn't racing, it's a school environment. but some (very few) of the advanced groups (with very high quality drivers) I've run with is extremely close to racing. you don't think i've been around motorsports long enough (either track events, or watch in cars) to know the environment i'm in? i guess you guys have not experienced HPDE with open passing (no signal required). it can be very close to race... but never as intense and certainly not the entire duration of the session. however for moments it gets very close.

I wished RJ didn't remove the other thread. everybody was sharing their opinions and I was sharing mine. most that voiced in that thread speaks again here tho. cool.




Modified by GhettoRacer at 9:10 AM 5/20/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However, I do come out a race far more fatigued. It's the mental strain. Racing adds an entirely new dimension to the "on-track" experience. Now, in addition to driving well on my own (which is not an easy task to master), I have to juggle the actions of forty other drivers who are all trying to inhabit the same space as me. Not only do I have to play nice, I have to do it in such a manner that I come out in the lead. I can't take a lap or two to catch my breath and refocus - if I have to do that, I may as well throw in the towel.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree 100%. I did a 1 hour race in the rain this past weekend with a mandatory 5 minute pit stop. I was bitching about the stop until about the 40th minute when not only my body, but more so my brain, welcomed the idea.

<u>HPDE</u>
-mostly on line
-focus on going fast between passing zones
-requires a point by with 1 car at a time

<u>Competition</u>
-quite a bit of offline
-deeper braking
-no passing signals, cars will be EVERYWHERE around you there is space
-3 or 4 wide, IN TURNS

After 3 years of competition I can safely say that I'll never PAY to do another DE because it's just not the same thing. I don't think a DE can prepare me for the competition world like competition then. Scratch that, I may do a FATT some time this year so I can have Brian Zalner as my instructor... but that's because of the instructor, not the environment. After this weekend of being involved in an incident because we were going 3 wide between turns 5 and 6 at Summit in the rain, I can definitely say there is no comparison.

 

you're getting old grandpa, always late. jfwy.

 

I voted scott, and I understand why you are doing this, but it isn't going to work. The HPDE crowd (I was/am one of them) JUST CAN'T Understand....there is not quantifiable way to explain it.

Whatever, let people think what they want to think, and HPDE people who swear they know how to race will bring their fast lap times and still lose.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to further elaborate, good car control is the last step of HPD. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Funny, I always thought it was the first step....


Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I always "raced" in my HPDE's (don't tell my instructors).. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have video to prove it... Funny stuff..

 

This brings up a good point. Do you HPDE guys ever drive off line just for practice? I have never really thought to do this, but I think it might be a good idea to work on this some myself. For example, drive like there was somone next to you in every turn (take the turn as hard as you can without hitting the invis car next to you). ...or is that idea just silly?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 57STS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you HPDE guys ever drive off line just for practice? </TD></TR></TABLE>
(a little OT....)
Most definately. In fact, my instructor at my first event (and one of the best instructors I have ever had) had me doing off-line cornering drills on my 2nd day.

 

you had awesome car control from the get go? good for you!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 57STS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This brings up a good point. Do you HPDE guys ever drive off line just for practice? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've never done it personally. Car control is car control. If you have enough seat time, you more or less know what you car is going to do at different speeds. In other words, I don't have to try to guess how much the car will track out if I enter the turn from the inside at a certain speed. I'm pretty sure I know exactly what it is going to do. That is the reason why I don't want my first event in the new racecar to be an actual race. I just need to learn the handling characteristics.

What you are talking about has merit though. That is one of the drills when you go for your comp liscense, and it's a good way to get you out of the HPDE mindset that says you have to use all of the track...

Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 57STS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This brings up a good point. Do you HPDE guys ever drive off line just for practice? I have never really thought to do this, but I think it might be a good idea to work on this some myself. For example, drive like there was somone next to you in every turn (take the turn as hard as you can without hitting the invis car next to you). ...or is that idea just silly?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think its silly at all but I would say that its more of an exercise of driving off-line than replicating a race condition if that's what you are asking. I think a lot of instructors that have run out of the more constructive advice but that you still want in the car will run you through exercises like this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 57STS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This brings up a good point. Do you HPDE guys ever drive off line just for practice? </TD></TR></TABLE>

yup. Pretty much any time I'm stuck behind someone running slower than I am. Why drive on line at 7/10s? Move off line and make it 9/10s.

Its not appropriate for novice groups. Intermediate, maybe. Esp. if you are just about ready to move up to solo anyway. If you have an instructor, tell him what you are going to do before hand.

joel

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 57STS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you HPDE guys ever drive off line just for practice?</TD></TR></TABLE>

On my own, I have tried driving off line (in instructor group) but would hestitate to have an intermediate student do it for fear of freaking out the other students. But, I have asked advanced-intermediate students to "experiment" with the line. Nothing major, just move turn-in points back and forth and see how it effects apex and track-out.

 

considering I have had 50% of my in car instruction from Corey he was always making me do weird **** like modify braking points as if a car where there to make a pass or I needed to block

at the ITR expo we actually got yelled at for passing 4 times in on lap, but we were doing it on purpose for my benifit for the comp school

my instruction has been some of the best because I got to choose my instructor, but I was also let loose solo at a very early stage because of my heightend involvement in HPDE's so I had to learn fast or just be in the way

are HPDE's as intense as racing, by all means no

if you intend upon racing your car and are setting it up for that can an HPDE be driven like a controlled race, if your instructor agrees to help you from that aspect why not?

 

Someone once told me that DEs are to Competition what Gran Tourismo is to DEs... you may learn the basics like conservation of momentum and a racing line but it really means nothing in terms of real world experience. Oversimplified, but kinda true.

 

Bah.
Go ahead and lock it RJ. Its apparent that ghettoDEer is never going to actually get what a vast multitude of people are trying to tell him.
As someone said earlier - output only.

PS - man. those Rennlist guys are friggin brutal. We're a daisy pluckin' walk in the park compared to them.

 

lock it for what? people can't hold their opinions here? you're the one that's weak and can't take any inputs.

i take inputs just fine, i absorb them, but it doesn't always changes my output.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bah.
As someone said earlier - output only.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

*Raises hand*

*Goes off to put it on a T-shirt*