Am i alone on this that "road racing" means actually "racing"? And just showing up at the track and doing open track events really ISNT road racing?



[Modified by Tyson, 3:31 PM 10/18/2002]

 

nope you're not the only one

yshi - who hopes to be road<u>racing</u> starting in january

 

Am I alone on this that "dog fighting" means actually "fighting"? And just showing up in MOAs with a F-15 and pretending to shoot down your squadron really ISN'T "dog fighting"?

Say that in the nearest Air Force bar and let me know how it goes.

Seriously, what's your point? What do you hope to gain by this distinction?

Andy




[Modified by maxQ, 6:38 PM 10/18/2002]

 

Ppl seem to associate the term "road racing" to just doing open track events. Learning how to fly doesnt mean youre "dog fighting".

 

Heh. You take my correct analogy and make it more extreme to stretch your point. "Learning to drive doesn't mean you're road racing." is the equivalent to your statement above.


Again, I must ask you why it matters to you. Are you threatened by them? Are your accomplishments "road racing" somehow diminished because they think they are as good as you are?





[Modified by maxQ, 6:50 PM 10/18/2002]

 

Racing on any road yo.
Like when I rolled that little bizzatch Accord with the NSX distributor.

The twisties north of my mom's house rack nadz .

 

yeah, maybe im being stuck up. but its just not road racing if youre on the track doing HPDE and it shouldnt be called road racing.

 

...dont mind me I am just laughing at Scotts attempt at being a stunna LOL

RoadRacing doesnt mean open track events
RoadRacing = ECHC

 

To me road racing means simply, "being allowed to pass wherever you want." Most time-trial events prohibit passing in corners... which is a good idea for the weekend driver just wanting to drive fast (in my opinion.) If you want to do REAL road racing, do SCCA events.

 

I'm with you Tyson. Unless you are competing you aren't racing - and even then you may not be. It also bugs me when someone refers to an autocross as a race. To me "race" implies 2 things:

1) Multiple cars together
2) Competition

An open passing HPDE does not have the competition element and it NEVER should. To call it racing is actually doing it a dis-service IMO. If you let people call it a race then they think they are competing with the other cars. If they think that bad things can happen instead of them learning (which is the purpose of an HPDE).

Autocrosses lack the W2W element, therefore they are an "autocross", not a race.

It also bugs me when people refer to wheels as "rims". Rims are on bicycles. It even pisses me off when people use the term "tuning" since tuning now means you added some performance parts, a body kit, a stereo and some nice lighting. They aren't tuning **** . . .

 

Race = Competition

 

For the record, I don't totally disagree with Tyson.

I just don't see this thread having any purpose or redeeming qualities.

 

This is a funny word, and a legitimate discussion can be had over many subtle aspects of its usage.

Example - crew members. Racers? Well, yeah. Racing Drivers? Well, no.

So many guys wives say of their husbands who are not racing drivers that they are going "racing" when they go to crew for a friend or employer.

Corruptification? Probably. Should hairs be split? Probably not. Are they racers - you bet your ***.

When people inaccurately called my lapping days "racing" I was uncomfortable and often corrected them - they usually didn't see the purpose in the distinction.

Now that I'm a "real racer" I'm uncomfortable telling people about it because it's not a big deal.

So often with words - you can't win.

Scott, who participated in a few races in 2002, but did far too little real racing....

 

Drew's favorite conversation:

Them: You race that car?
Me: Yeah
Them: What's it do in the 1/4
Me: I road race it
Them: *Blank stare* . . . . . . . . ain'it kinda flashy fer street racing?
Me: No - I road race it - on a track
Them: "blah blah blah NASCAR?" -OR- "blah blah blah Circle-track?"
Me: No not like NASCAR - left and right hand turns
Them: *Blank stare*


The point being that no one really has a clue what "racing" is other than those of us who do it

 

I can't speak for Tyson, but I know I've wasted many a post trying to help people who want to know what they need to do to get into road racing, only to find out that they actually just want info on HPDE's. It's not a big deal to me, but keep in mind that the colloquial definition of road racing is street racing. And when you say "no, on a track, not the street" they say "oh, like nASScar."

 

 

I call autocrossing 'racing' in general conversation because if I say I'm autocrossing, the response is usually "huh?"

I also hate it when anyone calls themselves a 'Tuner'. Don't know why

 

Alright. Since subtlety didn't work, let me be blunt.

I don't see what can be gained by a bunch of road racers sitting around on an open forum, beating on their chests, and pointing out that everyone else who doesn't have a daily driver tow vehicle and credit card debts that would make Bill Gates blush is a "poser".

You all are not wrong (I, too, correct people about HPDEs, although I disagree with Drew's assessment of autox), I simply don't understand why it has be stated publicly over and over again. Is the reason you all "race" to impress the average smuck? Be proud you're afforded the chance to do what you love(and what most envy) and stop worrying about whether you are given enough credit.

90% of the people on this forum want to "race" eventually and we all start somewhere. There is no point in dividing this community further.

Andy

 

I am on record as agreeing with Tyson's point. As far as "purpose or redeeming qualities"? Froggie panties to that.

Seriously, the distinction in my mind falls along a couple of related lines - the street "racing" issue, the "why don't you quit dinking around and come and race with us?" issue, and the the "belts-no-cage" issue.

With respect to the first, I have taken to using the term "circuit racing", post "Spazzed and Spurious". Plus, it sounds so darned continental, don't you think? I am a self righteous bitch about this but I think that anyone with a sanctioning body's license in their wallet has an obligation to educate people about the dangers of doing sporty stuff on public roads. I stop short of trolling around the kilz forums but, if someone comes to me, I will do what I can to improve their perspective. Remember that I am a teacher, so I am bent from the outset.

Second - and this grows out of the first point - I think it would be cool if enthusiasts with a demonstrated interest and ability to spend $$ on cars ought to look seriously at actually going racing. It is seen as some mythical thing that regular people can't do, which leaves some thinking that they can ONLY do it on the twisties past Mom's house. Again, I think it is in our (racer's) best interests to try to ease the transition for those who are interested - more competition = more viable series, better economy of scale for parts manufacturers, and so on.

I've beaten the third point to a pulp - with the dedicated help of some others around here. I have a HUGE vested interest in trying to keep people from killing themselves (a) on the race track, (b) on the street, driving cars like I am trying to insure, and (c) just because it makes me ill. I don't believe that there is anything (car-wise) more dangerous than those mutants that are neither street cars nor race cars. My definition (again) of race car is anything that gets a watch put on it and, once that line is crossed, it needs the safety equipment appropriate to its new use - typically that mandated by the sanctioning body. When I taught at the Honda Canada NSX school, we had a "no watches" policy - when I caught a guy timing his buddy (while I was riding with him), I told him I was done with him. Once the watch is out, the whole purpose and mindset of the activity shifts to a place that needs rollcages.

Kirk

PS - I also think that anyone who files a claim with their insurance company for crashing a car that is on a timed lap should be prosecuted for insurance fraud. Do they think (particularly if they get dropped) that the insurance companies are going to joyfully take that hit on their bottom line? (Thinking of that Porsche.) Hell, no - they pass the costs on to people who don't cheat the system.

 

Tyson,

Co-workers and friends alike now refer to the HPDEs I do as "going racing." It drives me nuts to explain repeatedly to them that what I do isn't timed and isn't competitve. The autocrossing I *used* to do was competitive and thus timed, but they think that is just playing around in a parking lot. I explain the whole rollcage/fire system/harness thing to them but they still seem to think you can really race without all that. The best we can all do is try to explain the reality of competitive and non-competitive events to others who ask.

This is a great focus of concern for me with the VW club. A lot of people have very skewed ideas of what is and is not acceptable behavior on the street. Only once a few of them have trashed their cars into ditches and guard rails have they come to their senses (and even then, not all of them have.)

As an aside, it's ironic how that "playing around" was probably a greater insurance risk than non-timed HPDEs. (Personally, I talk to my agent before every HPDE I do, just to be sure.)

-Adam

 

 

.


[Modified by SUPERAUTOBACS, 9:52 PM 10/18/2002]

 

Just as a side note...
The old Road Atlanta track days program had a "no timing" policy. 2nd offense you were kicked out never to return. "This is NOT racing" Kurt used to say 5 times in every drivers meeting.

I agree with what Kirk said.

But I have to also agree with Andy to a degree. If an HPDEer is keeping it on the track (not on the streets), following the rules, and generally doing things in a non-"mutant" type manner, what harm does it do to anyone if he refers to it as "racing" by the coffee maker on Monday morning? I certainly don't give a ****.

But I'll waffle here and throw Tyson some love because I can agree with him too. There's is something about actual racing that is beyond normal track driving in an HPDE. I can't really describe it. I think the "pyramid of motorsports" or whatever it is called (anybody got that link?) refers to the wheel to wheel racer as being a cocky bastard because you have to be a cocky bastard to do such things. This is pretty much true.
Don't believe this? When our boy Karl went to Lowes intimidated and unsure of himself, he sucked hind tit all weekend. Couldn't beat the H5 cars. Timid in traffic... blah blah.
Then he showed up to VIR with his "A Game" as he called it. Talking smack. Convinced he was going to roll everyone. He ran 100 times better. Same driver, same car. He had "his race on" as he so eloquently puts it.
So yes, there is a certain attitude and bravado inherent in many w2w racers. Maybe they just don't want to share that "racing" term with people who don't actually "race."
Something about going 3 wide in NASCAR 3/4 at Lowes without lifting... Something about bump drafting at 130mph...
You get the picture.

Then there's autocross... it is competition, in cars, so it's probably "racing."
Drag "racing" is racing... no?

What was my point?

 

alright, glad im not the only one. if the term "racing" just means driving a car fast around a track, as even my friends and coworkers also refer to what i do in general, then i can accept that "road racing" is showing up at the track and driving fast. but i think that at least within the community the distinction should be made, and made clear.

what is gained? a clear distinction of what you are hoping to accomplish on the track. theres is very big difference of just doing HPDE and actual competition in terms of how you should prepare your car and self. that post that asks "how low it too low for ROAD RACING", the answer can be quite different if you mean HPDE or competition and class. fortunately it was clear what he really meant, but it shows that the term is being overused, and my point is that its MISused. if others dont agree, then ill back down on my opinion on that, but otherwise, i think ppl should use the correct terms and not propogate misuse of terms like "coilover". (heh)

anyway, i was thinking of another analogy. because someone walks into a gym and works out, it doesnt make him a "body builder" or "weight lifter" in the real sense of the term, that the person is training for competition. anyway, i didnt mean to have to rant, i thought the original post was quite clear. but maybe my rant is trying to mask my insecurity that diminishes the greater hobby that i really participate in.


[Modified by Tyson, 10:41 PM 10/18/2002]

 

How is Tyson "dividing the community" by trying to get people to use the right words to describe what they do? How is that wrong?

Some of you don't see any value in people describing things accurately? Why is it assumed that anyone who wants to use his vocabulary accurately is pounding his chest?

-Adam