I completed the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's + Wisconsin Department of Transportation's "basic rider course." It was very basic, but I don't have to take a road test now, two days pretty well spent. I did disagree with one thing that was presented to us, though. For a little background on me, I'm 16.68237541381456101 years old, and started dirtbiking(some of the better motorcycle training, I hear) in the fall of '99. Wow, time is adding up. Anyway, our woman instructor told us that if the rear wheel locks up from braking, don't let up on the brake pedal thingy control. She said that you can highside if you let up on it while sliding. I knew that. However, I totally disagree that you should keep that slide going! I think you should get that wheel back under control and continue braking. I found an article that agreed that you should catch it before 10 degrees of slide and it won't throw you too bad. The article also stated that you will have trouble keeping the motorcycle upright when the rear end is comming around. It says that the gyroscopic effects of the wheel help keep it upright, not just your ballance. Whatever, a little too scientific for me.

I made the mistake of holding the rear brake ONCE in my days of dirtbiking...after I was done, I thought about it, and decided I would never do it like that again, atleast in a typical situation. What happened is that the rear locked, started coming around, and just wouldn't stop. I don't recall if I had it wrapped all the way around to the lock or not, but I realized that if I got to the lock, the concequences after that could be worse than just making corrections somewhere before you hit 10 degrees. I'd like to know everyone's opinions on this.

In short, I was instructed to hold the rear brake if a slide started back there, but I disagree with that method because it is potentially dangerous and feel that one should let off the brake before it gets bad, live with the little jerk it throws, and continue braking. What do you think?

 

I don't keep it locked and, yes, it behaves funky when the tire re-spins. Still I like it when I get the control back.

 

Thanks for the reassurement. I can't imagine why she led everyone in the class in that direction...most were unexperienced, and two women hadn't even driven motorcycles before. Oh well, at least I'll keep my back end in line ( ) and maybe I should educate her too.

 

WRONG!!!!!!!!!

If you lock your rear tire, DO NOT release the brake!!!

The bike will TOSS you off faster than you can say OH ****!!!!


The people at MSF are very well trained, and the techniques are designed to save your life, NOT YOUR BIKE!!!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C-EJ1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">WRONG!!!!!!!!!

If you lock your rear tire, DO NOT release the brake!!!

The bike will TOSS you off faster than you can say OH ****!!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

in this case, i think you're quite wrong.

and if you read my post, you would have read that my MSF instructor contradicted his instructor...indirectly at the very least.

so chill out.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The people at MSF are very well trained, and the techniques are designed to save your life, NOT YOUR BIKE!!!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats a pretty interesting statement, but it doesn't mean much in the context of this discussion. in this case, i think the best way to protect one's life is to stay on the bike. wouldnt you agree? so when is a good time to release the brake? once the back end has kicked around and you've hit the steering lock what do you do then?

 

depends on if the bike is heading towards a wall, cliff, or something that will hurt more than bailing. i would rather save myself rather than the bike. hehehe. whenever i lock th rear, i let go and just roll it out. never came close to goin down cause of locking the rear brake. my suggestion if you lock the rear is let go, and grab the front and do an endo. j/k i dont know what the msf class says, i never took it. why not buy a riding book, or racing book with techniques and read up on it. that should help you figure out what to do in a sticky situation

 

Falcon - I did read your post, and your instructor is right. Keep the rear wheel locked until you are done with your skid.

IF you had paid attention in class and on the course, you would have done this a few times, and learned how to control the bike under heavy braking. If done properly, your back end will NOT slide around on you and you will remain on the bike.

BUT on the off chance your bike is already starting to lean and loose the back end, releasing the brake will only cause you more problems, not less.

Dirt riding and Street riding are 2 completely different styles. Don't try to cross-over one riding style to the other, it only makes matters worse.

 

When was the last time you put your foot down and powerslid a streetbike around a pole/corner. Dirt gets you comfortable with sliding but the techniques are very different than street riding

 

I took the MSF last summer.. would like to take it again as a refresher.

If the front wheel skids, then you're supposed to release it and brake again, right?

-- Matt, who is getting into the habit of braking with the front only, and doesn't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

CRXSi90, do you have the article? If yes, I'd like to see it.

 

i would say keep the rears locked for a more control skid, if you let off the rear brakes the the wheel spin could whip the rear tail out of control (same thing as off throttle steer in a car). My friend locked up his rear twice yesterday and kept it locked until the bike stopped.

 

Hey, I front brake only all the time on the street. It's just too much hassle checking the rear for traction on the irregular street surface. Besides, I don't need the extra 3mph of faster corner entry afforded by trail braking. If the front slides you're pretty much fucked... that's when you meet Mr. Lowside and his buddy Mr. Guardrail and maybe Mrs. Lady'nBigSUVoncoming. Course you may get away by staying loose, letting off on the front brake and reapplying. But it's gotta be smooth. Not off, then on again. That **** unsettles the bike like chopping anywhere in a corner.

 

Thanks Tony, that's pretty much what I thought. I think a lot of people front brake only, I even read a discussion about it being faster for the novice track rider.

 

You can line the wheels back up and let off the brake that way it won't throw you, then continue on with your braking, it's simple physics really.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can line the wheels back up and let off the brake that way it won't throw you, then continue on with your braking, it's simple physics really.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree...if you're going straight, you can release the rear brake, and it won't toss you. If you do what I did and lock it up around a corner and try to release it, then YES, you will get thrown, and YES it will hurt

 

Yes. (at least the wisconsin MSF) teaches to keep the wheel locked. They also teach you to keep the wheel locked and continue till you STOP.

No, in some cases it's not necessary. But if they were to go into detail on proper usage of rear wheel skids and brake usage, it would take days, and remeber they're trying to teach new riders.

In almost all cases on the street, if you follow the MSF training, stand the bike up, point in a proper exit vector, and apply braking (and continue if you start to skid), you're probably executing a safe move.

No, it's not the most efficent, but it is consistent.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bryan305 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree...if you're going straight, you can release the rear brake, and it won't toss you. If you do what I did and lock it up around a corner and try to release it, then YES, you will get thrown, and YES it will hurt </TD></TR></TABLE>

I forgot to mention that! Don't release it in a turn (I was talking straight line), unless you know what you are doing (and that implies that you are good and know how to recover).

 

I keep hearing keep it locked and i've locked it a coulpe times on the street coming to stop and I've just kept it locked and had no problems. I've heard it from msf instructors and racing instructors. Granted we all know that releasing a locked rear wheel when leaned over is very bad. The question that some people arent seeing is if you should release it or not when the bike isnt leaned over much or at all. My answer is keep it locked.
A cool racing tip I've learned over the years is taking your rear brake pads and make an outline. Then cut the edges down to reduce the surface area thus making less stopping power to lock the rear wheel if you ever hit the rear too hard. It's not really a good idea for the street since that rear brake will probably save your life once, but it helps out a lot on the track once you get used to it. Definately a good idea to master the front brake and smooth throttle roll off for engine braking before you start using the rear brake.

 

i wish i understood why i would want to keep the rear wheel locked. when i did it in the past, i had to ride dirtbike style, kind of feeling where the rear end was trying to go with my butt and making steering inputs to keep it going straight until i realized i needed to rest my foot on the footpeg instead of the rear brake!

i guess i am a control freak.

 

this is the kinda stuff that i like reading in this forum. Not that am i tall enough junk...

props for a good thread...

 

Whether or not to release the rear brake after locking the rear wheel ALL depends on how out of shape the bike gets. If it's little or no crossup, releasing the rear brake will probably not hurt anything. However, if you're more than a little crossed up, you may very well spit yourself off the bike when the rear wheel snaps back into line, especially if it's at a higher speed. This isn't dirt riding, and the little jerk you may feel in the dirt when the rear wheel regains traction could very well translate to you getting a birds-eye view of the bike on the street, due to the vast difference in friction between a knobby and dirt vs. a street tire and pavement.

Listen to your instructor, but also realise that rear-wheel slides can be evidence of poor braking technique. The harder you're trying to stop, the less you should be pressing the rear brake, as the weight transfers to the front wheel and the vastly more powerful front brakes. It's VERY easy to lock a rear wheel that only has 10% of the bike weight on it, and often happens momentarily during downshifting if you aren't smooth.

MSF sounds dumb, but that's because they have to cater to a vast spectrum of riders and thus reduce things to the lowest common denominator. Their classes are an intro...get some more riding under your belt and then take a track school instead

 

meept i think you did the best job of trying to say what we all here were trying to say

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by meept &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The harder you're trying to stop, the less you should be pressing the rear brake, as the weight transfers to the front wheel and the vastly more powerful front brakes. It's VERY easy to lock a rear wheel that only has 10% of the bike weight on it, and often happens momentarily during downshifting if you aren't smooth.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's why I think in street riding people shouldn't even use the rear brake at all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by meept &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The harder you're trying to stop, the less you should be pressing the rear brake, as the weight transfers to the front wheel and the vastly more powerful front brakes. It's VERY easy to lock a rear wheel that only has 10% of the bike weight on it, and often happens momentarily during downshifting if you aren't smooth.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Careful with your opinions as some may take it as fact. Mind you, I'm not trying to step on your toes but just offering a counter point. I've ridden/owned various styles of bikes from sport to cruiser, to standard, to sport touring. Every bike has different geometry and therefore different ratios of braking between front and back. Every bike handles differently when it comes to the back brake. My F4 was fairly easy to lock the rear if you weren't careful. However, to utilize full braking potential the back brake still needs to be used.

My sport-touring bike can have a pretty hefty amount of back brake applied AND needs it if ultimate quick stopping is nessacary &lt;---(how do you like that spelling...ugg).

Leaving things like trail braking (commonly used by me) and using the back brake to ease nose dive when coming to a stop out of the equation... the back brake should still always be used when possible so long as its used properly.

Taken to an extreme you could also say that the front brake will get you in trouble and should not be used. Remember, a locked back brake is pretty easy to correct by anyone with a decent amount of skill. A locked front brake on the other hand can lead to a tucked front-end in a heartbeat.

 

I forgot to mention something about this whole back brake deal.

When I took my refresher course at MSF, I used to brake with ONLY my front's. That is until after class, my instructor and I had a small debate about it. He told me to bring my bike up the following day, and we'd do a little test about braking from 30-40 to 0.

When applied properly, and it takes some practice to get used to your own rear brake, the bike DEFINITELY stops faster using both brakes, rather than just the front brake alone.

I was able to stop in 4 cones distance ( I think about 10' apart ) using just my front brake, in a panic stop situation. Where as using both brakes, I was able to stop in about 3 cones.

10' can mean the difference between stopping on time, or becoming a statistic.

Lastly, I remember during our final riding exam, one of our students, who really was not comfortable with a bike managed to hi-side himself off the little 350cc training bikes at about 15mph. Don't ask me how, but he did it during the brake test.

He didn't pass.