Hey fellow civic drivers...

I'm really tempted to get the Zex street/strip peformance camshaft (Stage 2/part#59300) soon for my d16z6. I know there are more better and aggressive brand camshafts out there, but I don't want to spend to much. I'm doing this more mainly for fun and hopefully more improved engine sound. Plus I have to change the timing belt soon anyway

I know what kind of mid/high end performance to expect from it, but I can't seem to find anything on the low end driveability.

Can anybody who has these camshafts or similarly aggressive ones (Zex are less aggressive than the higher Crower/Gude stages, but still close enough for my comparison) tell me what their idle is like? If it was too "lumpy" for your taste, how did you resolve this? Please describe it to me as descriptive as you can. I want to know what I'm getting into before I actually do it.

Also more importantly, are you still running the stock valve train configuration (assuming you're still running the stock rpm band)? How does the stock valve train hold up under stock rpms with the new camshaft? I'm asking because the Zex states it "will work for stock configurations", though their valve springs and titanium retainers are recommended (of course they are going to promote it for extra profits!). I've heard some people are ok with this camshaft on stock valvetrain as long as they don't raise their rpm limiter.

Lastly, will I be able to likely pass emissions here in Washington with this modification?

Thanks.

 

Do a search and you'll get your info. This topic is in the archives.

 

I did do a search before hand and did another one just now. It seems that the word 'cam' is more used and interchanged than the technical word 'camshaft' itself. Reading through those searched threads still did not address some of the more indepth technical issues I bought up.

Okay I'm looking at Crower's website here, http://www.crower.com/cat/impo...shtml and the closest camshaft I would consider next to the zex would be the:

Stage 2 - Street/Strip with slight lope at idle due to increased primary and secondary lobes. Requires 84166 kit. 900-7500+ rpm. Part #63442.

With the Crower camshaft, are the valve springs and titanium retainers still required for a stock rpm band application? I've heard you can get away with the Zex stage 2, but how about Crower's stage 2?

I know it would defeat the purpose of getting an aggressive camshaft w/o raising my rpm limit, but will it still make good power in the stock rpm range or do I have to push the engine beyond 7500 rpms to see these gains and get my money's worth (this will obviously require more money invested in springs/retainers)?

Nobody has answered my question's about emissions with the Zex and now this Crower one. Are idle quality and emissions linked very closely? Meaning the more it lopes, the less I'll pass?

If it's a little rough on idle that's okay, as long as I won't have a problem with passing emissions. I don't want to modify something that will be a hassle later down the road with testing.

Help me out guys

 

Alright how come nobody seems to know what I'm asking/talking about?

I guess I'll have to ask Crower themselves to verify the legality of their Stage 2 camshafts. I just had to ask the superhonda crew first to see if anybody has had prior experience with the d16z6 cam/setup and actually going through emissions.

Another thing, how many civic owners have this stage 2 camshaft? I need some actual reviews. Like did they have to raise their idle and does their car die a lot if they don't? All the searches ever come up with are the DOHC engines. Common people start building up your D series already!

I also read a lot of horror stories about the DOHC Crower camshafts breaking while their engine is running :eek:! This is even more of a recurrance with the VTEC camshafts. Since our engines are SOHC, yet have the high lift of VTEC, I wonder if these camshafts are prone to breakage as well?!? The only possibility of curing this problem I read was to use the Type R Lost Motion Assemblies becuase of the bigger core diameter Crower utilizes. Well I know for sure that ain't going to work in our D series. Then again Crower always seems to blame it on improper installation! So what do you guys think? Worth the risk?

 

these are both actually interesting points, but i have no ideas, so i would like to learn more as well...oh and try crower or zex in your search, might find more...

 

I have done numerous searches and readings through all sorts of searched threads, even threads that are on other web boards! The points that they bring up are the camshaft(s) itself breaking in the B series motors and... well that's all that I found from using Crower. I can never find anything related to D series. Only Zex camshafts, not Crower.

I'm wondering if it is because of the lack of people that represent the interest of fixing up D series motors with Crower camshafts. That would explain the episode of absence as well.

I also wanna know if anybody was crazy to attempt a Stage 3 on a stock head? What was the ride like? Can the car even idle?!

 

I ran the same exact cam on the same motor with stock valvetrain on a motor with over 60,000 mi on it. The top end power band is definately nice, you can really hear the vtec kick in, ofcourse not like a DOHC, but for us SOHC guys its impressive.

The idle is fine. It doesn't have a lobe like you might think, it will still idle very steady but you will have a significant amout of valve chatter. ( it just sounds like you used a popsicle sticks instead of Fgauges to do a valve adjustment. )

Zex did manufacture a great product with this cam and I would definately recommend it to you even if you daily drive the car and beat on it regularly. Just don't be taking it to 8500 or anything. It will make power up to about 74-76 depending on your setup though. Good Luck

 

I ran the same exact cam on the same motor with stock valvetrain on a motor with over 60,000 mi on it. The top end power band is definately nice, you can really hear the vtec kick in, of course not like a DOHC, but for us SOHC guys its impressive.

Yes.... finally somebody answered exactly what I have been searching for. This is exactly the reason I want to buy an aggressive camshaft. I wonder if the Crower one will perform similarly if not better! :D

The idle is fine. It doesn't have a lobe like you might think, it will still idle very steady but you will have a significant amout of valve chatter. ( it just sounds like you used a popsicle sticks instead of Fgauges to do a valve adjustment. )

Yeah I read this was referred to as "noise". Is it that noticible when the aggressive VTEC lobes kick in? Is it tolerable? Can a re-adjustment of valve lashes reduce this symptom?

Zex did manufacture a great product with this cam and I would definately recommend it to you even if you daily drive the car and beat on it regularly. Just don't be taking it to 8500 or anything. It will make power up to about 74-76 depending on your setup though.

Yeah the Zex is my current other alternative to Crower.

One thing, to those that have dyno'd and tuned their car, what is the general adjustment to the cam gear to tailor it for more high rpm power? Is it advance or retard? Generally how many degrees? Lastly, does the adjustment of the cam gear affect the ignition timing accordingly or are they separate of each other?

 

I'll be checking this thread because i see that i'm about to learn some new stuff.

I don't see a reason why not use stage 2 on stock valvetrain.As long as your rpm limit isn't changed from stock.You're of course not going to get the power that you should,but it's a start.But you should upgrade the valvetrain later for full performance.

Waiting for D-series people with stage 2 cams !!!!!!!!!!

 

Valvetrain upgrade is required, well, let's say suggested, for S2 cams because of the duration and change of the lobe from stock. Stock springs and retainers were never meant to compress that far or need to slam the valves shut that fast ( as fast as they need to when lobe is changed/increased) and you are right, you can leave valvetrain stock, you just won't safely be able to see all the top end power you've just gained.

 

Does anybody know the answers to my questions about the ignition timing, if it's independent of cam gear timing changes?

Also has anybody ever been crazy enough to put a stage 3 camshaft in a stock or lightly modified D16 head? I mean if you're going to want the biggest improvement "in the end", isn't it logical to plan ahead and get the biggest bang for your buck now? What is the draw back to getting such an aggressive camshaft now?

 

Since the distributor is directly connected to the cam, changes in cam timing have an effect on the ignition timing.

Yes, it's always logical to plan ahead, but the head won't flow enough air to really maximize the potential of the cam. If you don't have a problem with that, and plan on doing the headwork to get the most out of the cam*, go for it. The more aggressive cams usually require upgraded valve springs to deal with the different profile of the cam. Usually regardless of rpms.

*if you aren't going to do headwork to flow the air, get a less aggressive cam. You'll make more power that way. And that really is the important part. Not sounding fast, being fast.

 

if you use a cam gear to adjust the timing not just set it forward/backwards a tooth or two it does NOT affect the dist. timing. If you do change the position of the cam then it WILL affect the ignition timing.

I had a gude regrind in my 1.6 sentra and it was clickety like a **** at idle but it ripped on a stock valvetrain. It was the street cam though not sure how that compares to "stage 2".

 

So if I wanted to make the camshaft produce more higher end power, I would Retard the cam gear timing, correct? Then to counter this I would have to somewhat advance the ignition timing accordingly to it's previous setting mark, or maybe even more?

I know the only true way to tune it is on the dyno itself, but I wanna make sure I get my advance and retard timing scenarios comprehended.

So what head work would you recommend besides the springs and retainers, to get the head at least streetable for a Stage 3 profile camshaft? What do you believe is the minimum amount of head work?

Well I just wanted to sound fast for my own pleasure and maybe people will actually take notice and be forwarned to attempt anything stupid with me. I know it sounds a little ricey, but this isn't the same as some fart can exhaust modication (all LOUD and NO go). This is a totaly different scenario if you know what I mean. If they still insist and they put up a good fight, then I can always resort to the bottle, at least that will back up my "sounds".


Modified by S-Zero at 3:25 AM 5/12/2003

 

Yeah I keep hearing from other experienced drivers on how an aftermarket camshaft compared to the stock is like night and day for them.

I can't wait to experience this for myself and more importantly, surprise people!

 

adjusting the camgear w/o a dyno on any car much less a sohc car is TOTALLY pointless. there is NO way of telling if your gaining or loosing power...

in most cases you benifit from advancing the Intake cam and retarding the exhaust cam... by advancing both (because it's all on the same cam) you could lose serious power over stock settings... so w/o a dyno DO NOT MESS WITH YOUR CAM TIMING. even if someone else had success with a certain setting doesn't mean you will get the same benifits.

and NO you do NOT change your ignition timing when you change the cam timing via a cam gear... if you do so without a cam gear your REALLY asking for problems. without a dyno and a timing light you'll probobly never get it running as good as it could or even as well as it would set up to stock settings.

I frankly wouldn't recomend any headwork... if they say it works with stock setup then go for it... P&P is a toss up you could end up getting good power for the BIG money you spend to do it or you could end up losing power (yes it's more than possible). As far as valvetrain... if you got the money go nuts... otherwise stick with stock till you can afford to upgrade it too.

Just a cam should make you more than happy for a while...

My sentra loved those cams... sounded like a diesel at idle it was sooo loud but it'd take a poorly tuned/maintained 5.0 mustang up till 3rd gear... can't complain about that from a 1.6

 

Hmm... Ok I see what you're getting at.

Yeah I'm going to get a camshaft with valve springs/retainers cuz I got a good package deal I can't afford to pass up. Save money now I say.

Well I was planning on leaving the cam at 0 degrees anyway. Just wondering the basics of camshaft tuning. You explained it very well and detailed for me to think about it now. Esp. the difference limitations between SOHC and DOHC.

Do you know how or where I can find out how much clearance I will still have between the piston and the lifted valves in conjunction with these aggressive camshafts? How much adjusted cam gear timing is too much that I run the risk of bent valves? Will the Dyno people take this into consideration?

I heard P&P is one of the least amount of HP return on investment.

Since it's a 1.6 also, I don't expect big gains yet w/o the use of a turbo. My goal so far it probably to get 200 whp and then some. I know this much power is going to need a turbo later on. But for now, I want some high reving fun!!!

 

high revs aren't really what you want... what you want is effective revs... there's no reason to wind out your motor if you have more power in the next gear at lower rpms... which is what you should want...

As far as determining clearance... the only SURE way to do that is to clay the motor... simply put you put clay on top of the pistons and cylce it through all 4 cycles then you check to see if the clay is dented or not... then you measure the clay and that's how much clearance you have.

Ask the manufacturer of the cams... they should know how many degree's of advance or retard will cause valve slap...

Best of luck to ya.