Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger."
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 0
From: CA, USA
Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger."
While researching (real) turbochargers, I came across some data which will be of interest to anyone looking at the "electric supercharger" sold on Ebay.
1. Required power to deliver 7psi boost to a H22 engine is around 8hp. Yes, eight horsepower. So no matter how the boost is created, it's going to take that much energy to get there. Since the electric supercharge runs on 12V, we can calculate the amps required. 746watts/hp * 8hp = 5968watts. Battery amps = 5868Watts / 12V = 497amps!
2. Their blower is not 100% efficient, due to pumping losses and electrical inefficiencies - their total effeciency is more like 70%. So even if it did work (which it doesn't) it would take even more power than listed above.... 710amps to be exact.
3. The air delivery quoted by the Ebay vendor is with *zero* backpressure. When doing forced induction, you obviously have 7psi backpressure in the above case. Their blower will absolutely not work with this much backpressure, and will in fact reverse flow. So their claim is pure BS in the intended application.
A good experiment to see if you wasted your money, is to set a 7lb object on the outlet of the electric supercharger, then measure the flow. Of course you needn't bother, because the little blower will be unable to lift the restriction...
People who sell stuff like this should be in jail...
1. Required power to deliver 7psi boost to a H22 engine is around 8hp. Yes, eight horsepower. So no matter how the boost is created, it's going to take that much energy to get there. Since the electric supercharge runs on 12V, we can calculate the amps required. 746watts/hp * 8hp = 5968watts. Battery amps = 5868Watts / 12V = 497amps!
2. Their blower is not 100% efficient, due to pumping losses and electrical inefficiencies - their total effeciency is more like 70%. So even if it did work (which it doesn't) it would take even more power than listed above.... 710amps to be exact.
3. The air delivery quoted by the Ebay vendor is with *zero* backpressure. When doing forced induction, you obviously have 7psi backpressure in the above case. Their blower will absolutely not work with this much backpressure, and will in fact reverse flow. So their claim is pure BS in the intended application.
A good experiment to see if you wasted your money, is to set a 7lb object on the outlet of the electric supercharger, then measure the flow. Of course you needn't bother, because the little blower will be unable to lift the restriction...
People who sell stuff like this should be in jail...
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 970
Likes: 1
From: all motor Toronto Canada, Canada
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (kb58)
And people that would even CONSIDER buying something that stupid should never be able to go within 50 feet of a car ever again.
Just the name of the product sounds like a piece of ****.
Just the name of the product sounds like a piece of ****.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,132
Likes: 5
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">3. The air delivery quoted by the Ebay vendor is with *zero* backpressure. When doing forced induction, you obviously have 7psi backpressure in the above case. Their blower will absolutely not work with this much backpressure, and will in fact reverse flow. So their claim is pure BS in the intended application.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Who said that it makes 7psi of boost? If it makes any boost at all its gotta be really small. Otherwise the air being sucked into the engine will probably windmill the thing along, so rather than reversing flow, the engine will be helping to turn that thing faster than the motor would by itself. If it can't keep up by itself, it just adds restriction. How stupid is that?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A good experiment to see if you wasted your money, is to set a 7lb object on the outlet of the electric supercharger, then measure the flow. Of course you needn't bother, because the little blower will be unable to lift the restriction...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually 7 pounds PER SQUARE INCH of area of the discharge opening. So for a 60mm diameter throttle body, that would be about 30 pounds.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People who sell stuff like this should be in jail...</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's called 'free enterprise'. But people who buy it shouldn't be opening their hoods...
What is this thing anyway? A squirrel-cage ventilation blower?
Who said that it makes 7psi of boost? If it makes any boost at all its gotta be really small. Otherwise the air being sucked into the engine will probably windmill the thing along, so rather than reversing flow, the engine will be helping to turn that thing faster than the motor would by itself. If it can't keep up by itself, it just adds restriction. How stupid is that?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A good experiment to see if you wasted your money, is to set a 7lb object on the outlet of the electric supercharger, then measure the flow. Of course you needn't bother, because the little blower will be unable to lift the restriction...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually 7 pounds PER SQUARE INCH of area of the discharge opening. So for a 60mm diameter throttle body, that would be about 30 pounds.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People who sell stuff like this should be in jail...</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's called 'free enterprise'. But people who buy it shouldn't be opening their hoods...
What is this thing anyway? A squirrel-cage ventilation blower?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,132
Likes: 5
Re: (redneckstanger)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by redneckstanger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i geuss i better get rid of mine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, does it work? How did your 1/4 mile times compare?
I've never actually seen one, I'm just real suspicious of the description. Like kb58 says, it takes substantial power to do any useful amount of compression... But I think some manufacturers are looking at electrically-driven compressors, but those just aren't the same.
Well, does it work? How did your 1/4 mile times compare?
I've never actually seen one, I'm just real suspicious of the description. Like kb58 says, it takes substantial power to do any useful amount of compression... But I think some manufacturers are looking at electrically-driven compressors, but those just aren't the same.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,062
Likes: 0
From: Hockeytown, MI
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. Required power to deliver 7psi boost to a H22 engine is around 8hp. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Where do you get this figure from?
Where do you get this figure from?
Trending Topics
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 1
From: BC
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (Ninja_Jc7)
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 0
From: where civics tend to disappear, NC
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (Mr. S)
This sounds almost as dumb as the Hydra-Charger. A hydrualic pump driven compressor. I remember reading about it in Sport Compact Car a while back.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,842
Likes: 72
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (CRX PAT)
you should read more about it....
there has been an update since it was discussed in the issue you're talking about
http://www.sportcompactcarweb....abble/
it was a serious project by GARRETT... if you don't know garrett is VERY reputable and the theory behind the idea is MORE than attainable and would probobly be a GREAT product...
Hydrolic pressure can spin stuff or move stuff WAY more efficiently than air or a pulley... a hydrolically spun turbo would be AWESOME...
if you read the link though garrett dropped it and gave the developement rights to the guy behind the idea who is focusing on long-haul trucking not performance markets... however it also says there is one sitting in jim wolf's garage on a I30... so you never know...
there has been an update since it was discussed in the issue you're talking about
http://www.sportcompactcarweb....abble/
it was a serious project by GARRETT... if you don't know garrett is VERY reputable and the theory behind the idea is MORE than attainable and would probobly be a GREAT product...
Hydrolic pressure can spin stuff or move stuff WAY more efficiently than air or a pulley... a hydrolically spun turbo would be AWESOME...
if you read the link though garrett dropped it and gave the developement rights to the guy behind the idea who is focusing on long-haul trucking not performance markets... however it also says there is one sitting in jim wolf's garage on a I30... so you never know...
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 0
From: CA, USA
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (Ninja_Jc7)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ninja_Jc7 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where you that bored to figure that all out? Good analogy though</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, I just get really pissed to see people knowingly misrepresenting stuff and trying to take advantage of others.
No, I just get really pissed to see people knowingly misrepresenting stuff and trying to take advantage of others.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 0
From: CA, USA
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (sackdz)
"Where do you get this figure from?"
There's a good spreadsheet program which you can use to calculate turbocharger parameters. I noticed the calculated horsepower and thought it would be a good example about how much power is required to attain a given boost, no matter how it's obtained.
The very useful link is: http://www.gnttype.org/techare....html
The spreadsheet link is at the bottom.
Modified by kb58 at 4:22 AM 5/7/2003
There's a good spreadsheet program which you can use to calculate turbocharger parameters. I noticed the calculated horsepower and thought it would be a good example about how much power is required to attain a given boost, no matter how it's obtained.
The very useful link is: http://www.gnttype.org/techare....html
The spreadsheet link is at the bottom.
Modified by kb58 at 4:22 AM 5/7/2003
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,169
Likes: 0
From: Burlington, WI, USA
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (CRX PAT)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX PAT »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This sounds almost as dumb as the Hydra-Charger. A hydrualic pump driven compressor. I remember reading about it in Sport Compact Car a while back.</TD></TR></TABLE>
actually the Hydra-Charger is one of the best ideas in a long time. Hardly any parasitic drag like a typical turbo charger + spooling at an insanely low RPM. Would be the best if it was affordable.
mike
actually the Hydra-Charger is one of the best ideas in a long time. Hardly any parasitic drag like a typical turbo charger + spooling at an insanely low RPM. Would be the best if it was affordable.
mike
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,132
Likes: 5
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (sackdz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sackdz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Where do you get this figure from?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Or from almost any first-year thermodynamics textbook.
Or from almost any first-year thermodynamics textbook.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,784
Likes: 0
From: CA, USA
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (MikeMAN)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeMAN »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
actually the Hydra-Charger is one of the best ideas in a long time. Hardly any parasitic drag like a typical turbo charger + spooling at an insanely low RPM. Would be the best if it was affordable.
mike</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know a guy who was working on such a thing. The nice thing was the flexibility, putting the small pump in one place and be able to put the compressor anywhere. I don't remember the efficiency of the hydraulic compressor though. I know it could be an issue because there's the belt losses, pump losses, fluid flow losses to the compressor, and power transmission losses in the compressor. Still, it seems like a pretty interesting approach... especially if you consider you can use variable fluid flow to provide variable boost at any rpm. You could have a dead flat torque curve. I don't know what happened to the project though and it's been a few years.
actually the Hydra-Charger is one of the best ideas in a long time. Hardly any parasitic drag like a typical turbo charger + spooling at an insanely low RPM. Would be the best if it was affordable.
mike</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know a guy who was working on such a thing. The nice thing was the flexibility, putting the small pump in one place and be able to put the compressor anywhere. I don't remember the efficiency of the hydraulic compressor though. I know it could be an issue because there's the belt losses, pump losses, fluid flow losses to the compressor, and power transmission losses in the compressor. Still, it seems like a pretty interesting approach... especially if you consider you can use variable fluid flow to provide variable boost at any rpm. You could have a dead flat torque curve. I don't know what happened to the project though and it's been a few years.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,132
Likes: 5
Re: Read this if you've ever considered the "electric supercharger." (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... especially if you consider you can use variable fluid flow to provide variable boost at any rpm. You could have a dead flat torque curve...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Saabs for the last few years have had a very flat torque curve, by modulating the throttle & turbo bypass. So it can be done... They control to torque, so the max boost pressure isn't constant. Lots of stuff to adapt if you wanna do that to another engine, though.
Saabs for the last few years have had a very flat torque curve, by modulating the throttle & turbo bypass. So it can be done... They control to torque, so the max boost pressure isn't constant. Lots of stuff to adapt if you wanna do that to another engine, though.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Hazard County, USA
Re: (CIVICVTI2)...........
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CIVICVTI2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think he's jokin but I could be wrong</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I was joking.
Yeah I was joking.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post