I was at a respectable company this week and he had alot of different sets of aftermarket springs from a bunch of different companies lying around.

Toda, JUN, Integra Type-R, GSR, Crower, Web and then I saw it...

THE SPRING TESTER! Its a device you put a spring in, and it tests the compression/pressure of the springs. YOu just put the spring in, and pull down the handle and measure how far down the spring goes before coil bind, etc....it tells you how many lbs etc...spring pressures...

Basically, everything you need to know to decide what kind of valvetrain to put in your head.

So my question to some of you is:

Is there ANY difference between Toda springs and ITR springs. And if you think there is, please post what it is.

I am not saying they are identicle, I just would like to know what is the difference? They look the same, they test the same, they are the same height, the bind at the same point, the spring tester could find no difference. I am puzzled. Anyone have something to add? I am trying to figure it all out. I am going back in 2 weeks to do more tests. At which time, I will post the results.

Anyone have something to add on the subject? I was under the impression every aftermarket company provided totally different springs than Stock Honda.

Jeff



[Modified by ImportReview, 6:48 AM 6/20/2001]

 

hey ImportReview..... your pretty active when it comes to scrutinising products, setups etc etc...... wats your motivation?? just wondering?

 

not to try to flame like everybody else but wasn't it you that said when using toda cams the only good spring to use is the toda ones

 

I think jeff provides a great service to us all.

Even if he did, wouldn't you want to know if the JUN springs are exactly the same as the stock ITR springs?? I would.

Just my .02

 

i would too!! and your point is.

 

Little helpful tidbit. They are not the same. Jun vs. ITR springs that is. I forgot the proper term, but the Jun's have more coils on the bottom then on the top. They are variable load capable depending on the height it is depressed. My terms may be messed up a little so please bear with me.

If i bought a product that is as important as cams, i would take every necessary precaution to make sure that it was done properly. And where does it say that ITR springs can safely rev to 9.5K. It doesnt, yet Jun springs can.

The same goes for Toda as well. Buy the springs meant for the cams, don't be cheap. But hey its your motor. If you drop or float a valve because you were to cheap to buy the proper spring be my guest.

Its your motor.

I would recommend using the manufacturers suggested spring retainer combo for best and safe results.

And Jeff your smart enough to know that the springs are physically different as well. I could care less what there max pressure is. Only that some springs are load variable, and others are not.

I could be wrong, but i doubt it.

 

Progressive load?

 

Im going to see how you can be now.


Boba- who will leave you alone for now.


[Modified by Boba-Fett, 1:14 PM 6/20/2001]

 

Someone who would know told me that the only difference between the Mugen and ITR springs was the surface treatment. Apparently the Mugen springs are treated in such a way as to reduce the chance of fatigue failure due to running at higher RPM.

This is why Mugen insist that you swap out the ITR springs with the their springs when you install their ECU. Even with the stock cams the stock springs will not last long running at 9000RPM.

Regards,

 

I've been looking for a good inner valve spring that is not as stiff at the Portflow inner. Those are way too stiff. I plan on running Toda Spec A camshafts in my B20 when it is done, and I don't think the stock ITR springs will hold up very well. By what I have gathered, once my cylinder head is done, my Spec A cams will make power to 8800-9000.

My main reason for not wanting to run an extremely stiff spring is, less drag on the engine. I KNOW a super stiff spring kills some horsepower. Don't know if it's 2 or 10 but it makes sense.
Also, a lighter spring with less pressure won't kill your valvetrain as bad. The seats will be in better condition and last longer, etc.

I don't want to tear this engine down 20k miles from now. I want to build this one to last a long time. Just drop it in my teg and don't **** with it anymore.

So does anyone know of a SLIGHTLY stiffer spring?

 

Someone who would know told me that the only difference between the Mugen and ITR springs was the surface treatment. Apparently the Mugen springs are treated in such a way as to reduce the chance of fatigue failure due to running at higher RPM.

This is why Mugen insist that you swap out the ITR springs with the their springs when you install their ECU. Even with the stock cams the stock springs will not last long running at 9000RPM.

Regards,

 

"I am not saying they are identicle, I just would like to know what is the difference? They look the same, they test the same, they are the same height, the bind at the same point, the spring tester could find no difference. I am puzzled. Anyone have something to add? "

Just wonder if you can press the springs down 9000 times/minute for say...30minutes? And let me know how stiff the springs are after that excercise? Thanks in advance.

Ummm...any machines that u can test the springs with? Your arms can't do it obviously dang








[Modified by VTEC2DaLimit, 2:44 PM 6/20/2001]

 

This could be some good info Jeff, if the testing is performed via the same procedure for all springs. Now, we won't get any info on life estimates since this would need to be done at specific frequencies, compressed heights and compression rates, plus probaby some other criteria.

All the springs should have their spring rates checked at the installed height and maybe at .100", .200", .300", .400" etc lifts, this will tell us which ones have progressive or linear rates. By fully compressing the spring, a lift and load would be determined for coil bind.

Remember that two cams with the same lift may require different spring rates due to a more aggressive cam profile or the valves or rockers may be of different weights. Plus valve to piston clearance should always be checked with a new cam.




[Modified by SMSP, 7:19 AM 6/20/2001]

 

Portflow's kill about 5hp at the top end as compared to Toda Springs.

I wouldn't be suprised if Toda Springs and ITR springs are very similiar.

I was told by a respectable tuner that I DID NOT have to change my valve springs when putting in Spec B's (and using a 9200rpm redline), all I had to do was change my retainers to titanium ones. This same tuner was the one who told me about the 5hp high end loss from using the portflow valve springs.


[Modified by KJ, 12:06 PM 6/20/2001]

 

Doh! I already ordered the springs with the B's... Oh well... Better to be safe than sorry! I guess I can go to a 9500 rev limiter then, huh?

 

I don't think my point about the Mugen springs has been given much thought by those who raise there red line with the stock springs. As well, titanium retainers are much more fragile then the stock retainers and are prone to failure if they are not replace frequently. See recent threads for proof!

I would be VERY careful about what advice I took regarding valve train modifications. It is not something you want to role the dice with!

Regards,

 

This is very interesting. I am anxiously awaiting the results.

 

"put the spring in and pull the handle down....?"

This is a manual machine? And what information to do hope to glean from such a machine? And you are using visual comparisons? Get real. You can come to NO conclusions from such a machine. That's like testing cylinder head flow rates by farting into the intake manifold and subjectively measuring the "blue flame" that comes out of the exhaust port.

To test spring rate, load vs compression, strain etc you need something like a computerized Instron testing machine - and you need a sample size greater than ONE to make any sort of coherent conclusion.


[Modified by Big Phat R, 9:30 AM 6/20/2001]

 

Well, all in all, everyone had great points in this thread.

I should have described what and how I tested them first.

I pulled the handle down to compression the springs at different heights. 1 inch, full press, 1.2 inch, etc...and the TOda SPring had the SAME load as the ITR spring at all points.

I mean, not close pressure, exact pressure. And they look identicle. I mean the turns in the coils and the level of each coil is exactly the same, to the naked eye. There does not appear to be any particular coating in the springs either.

My motivation? Well....if they are the same as ITR springs, I am going to save you guys some money. Thats the main goal. Tell you what works.

Boba-fett? I have no idea what your trying to do. I am not involved in scandals.

Jeff

 

Sorry, but this topic is just a thorn in my dam'n side! First of all, I agree with import reviews skepticism in regards to the difference between stock ITR and many other aftermarket valvesprings. Lets forget ITR, Toda, JUN, etc. for a minute. And look at a bone-stock '97 B18C1 I had in my old '94 CX HB.

I installed an OBD 1 Mugen N1 ecu (9100 rpm) in the car along with stock '98 ITR cams and a Weapon R fpr (no valvetrain mods). The car had an AXIS header (2.5 inch flange) 2.5 piping (no cat/no resonator) to an APEXi Dunk muffler. An otherwise stock powerplant with about 40k miles on it when I bought the motor from the wrecked car.

After tuning the car and working the bugs out of it (ran knock sensor wire, etc) the car really performed beautifully. On the street it was a beast, and some drag strip testing @ E-town netted me low 14's (14.1 @ 99 mph) on street tires w/8500 rpm upshifts. The car was a succesful bracket car for almost two full seasons before I sold it. And never had ANY problems whatsoever with it, AT ALL! I simply stayed away from the high redline and always kept the revs below 8700. In November of '00 I finally sold the car with a stock '95 GSR ECU and GSR cams back in it. The kid that bought it still drives the car everyday! And has not done ANYTHING to the car except plugs/wires/oil. I may not have dyno sheets or a spring tester. But if a stock GSR head/valvetrain can withstand the abuse I dished out to it for 20 months! Then an ITR valvetrain should only be that much better!

H-PIMP: Who is skeptical of tearing down the stock ITR head to replace the valve springs with "so-called" better ones.

 

anyone want to swap out a set of Toda valvesprings for a set of ITR valvesprings on their Todas and spin that baby to 9300 rpm to test Jeff's theory? We should do what Motor Week does and have a 6 month and 1 year follow-up report too. Anyone getting new Todas for $1000 in the not too distant future , have a 9000+ rpm redline, and willing to put in ITR valvesprings to save money and be our 1 year test mule? Anyone? How about you Jeff?

Hey why don't we do that for the Jun's as well?

 

THey are currently being tested at 10,000 RPM with Toda Spec B's.

I thought it was funny you brought that up though Tuan. ahha. I was thinking the same thing man!

There might be a difference in the exhuast spring, I have not tested that yet.

O yeah....I tried Toda Spec C's with ITR lifters, ITR rocker assemble and ITR springs, for 15 dyno passes. I only took it to 9,000 though. I also drove on the street for 2 weeks with JUN type 3's in a stock GSR head taking it to 8600.

I try all kinds of stuff. I just want to find out if companies claims are accurate. And hell, if ITR springs are as good as the Toda, then why not do the research yoruself and find out like me?

Also to note...YOu can't use Toda Spec B's or C's with Web Ti Valvetrain. You will have broken springs within days.

I am compiling a list of spring rates and what you can use with what that should work. I probably won't publish it until late this year.

Jeff



[Modified by ImportReview, 6:12 PM 6/20/2001]

 

Thats funny. On Mugen's website they used to state that ITR doesnt need their springs.

 

The ones you tested may have not been Toda Springs. I have seen that same test done before at Portflow. And if memory serves me correctly, the Toda springs did test close to the ITR, but was noticeably lesser coils. The ITRs bound first.
Unless AKH are using different Toda springs on their car than they sell to the rest of you guys.

 

Is it possible that the metal composition of the Toda and ITR springs are different and therefore they can have different capacities to resist fatigue/work harden at high RPM????????