Blah, blah, blah.....don't build yourself a new race car....buy one that somebody else has already lost their *** on.....

We've all heard it. We all know it's generally true.

Here's an eye opener for you:

http://bbs.sccaproracing.com/ubb/For...ML/001043.html

Now I know that not everyone wants to race a 626, and there is some question as to the reliability of these cars - statements to the effect that all problems have been resolved to the contrary notwithstanding - but Wow is that alot of stuff for the money.

I think there are several factors at work - again the Mazda 626 thing, and the economy in general.

You guys running ITA,B,C in little hatchback vehicles are not dumb....

Scott, who is not dumb either...but he isn't running right now so he can't be very smart...

 

$25K... not a bad deal

 

Mirko Racing, Located in NorCal if I remember correctly. Even better deal for us who live in the area.

 

Anyone want to go half and half on this deal with me?

 

Gee, $25K for cars that pretty much aren't legal or competitive for anything! You could run ITE, if your region has the class, and race against, I dunno...like two other people all season.

You could pay an entry fee to get lapped by an entire WCTC field, after you pony up the dough for the SCCA pro license and spec tires. You could probably wax a bunch of Italian car fans at an Alfa club track day.

Seriously - orphan race cars are to be strenuously avoided. Even if they are a good deal.

Kirk

(who also knows that "spares" is often secret racer code for "broken stuff")

 

Isn't building it half the fun ???????? (yes twice the price)

 

Okay - I am officially looking for someone who thinks it is fun enough to build racing cars to build my next one. I won't even charge you for the enjoyment...

K

 

You can come help me with the integra

I'm having lots of fun!!

 

Kirk,

I always find plenty to agree with in what you write, but if I follow some of it to its logical conclusion we should all just race rental karts.

Assuming these cars could be operated with reasonable mechanical reliability and serviceability, and acknowledging that there is a wide range of ambition, potential, and motivation in the racer pool, then it is not inconceivable that these might represent a great buy in a well built and reasonably fast Touring Car. They are most likely destined for run what you brung, but so what? At that price a person could have alot of fun DRIVING, and in the group in which an ITE or an SPU car might find itself it might well find something to be RACED against - and that just might be good enough.

Scott, who likes RS, ITE, and SPU...and hell, the SCCA too...and who doesn't like too many rules...

 

I always wanted to ask this, but what does an 'average' race weekend cost. Factor in entrance fees, travel, lodging, and wear and tear on items (tires, brakes, etc.).

I'm just going through one of my 'If I wanted to race how much would I have to earn again?' phases, again.

 

If you just look at what you shell out for a close local race plus the fraction of the major consumables like tires and brakes then maybe you could say $6-700.

If you really look harder and account for overall service life & maintenance, and a little more distance, then it's more like $1000.

Scott, who says that this is just for local club racing in a relatively average IT type car...owning and driving race cars isn't what I'd call affordable for the average guy and it isn't getting any cheaper...as an average guy I'd say it's a crazy and potentially ruinous sport...

 

I'll do it, but you have no idea how LONG it'll take me

 

Yes, buying one that someone else built is cheaper.

But, if you like to tinker, building one yourself is very rewarding. You'll be very familiar with the car when you are through too. As for the money, you don't have to take the hit all at once. Do all of the safety related stuff first, and race it a 1/2 season. You shouldn't try to run up front until you have some experience anyway. Then maybe some good suspension stuff and a few other doo dads. Then do the motor, etc. Heck, you don't even need a trailer and a tow vehicle yet, just drive it to the track or rent a tow dolly for your first year. Easing into it like this controls your learning curve and minimizes your loss if you lose interest and want to bail out.

BTW, look real close at Mirko's stuff before buying. He is known for over-engineering things until they cease to work.

 

I should state my assumptions, I guess. I assume that the average person* who wants to race wants to "race." I define this as competing against others head to head in comparable cars. I also assume that more cars defined as "comparable" is a good thing, as it increases the chance of the "head to head" thing happening. I also ascribe a lot of value to those comparable cars being in the same class - even if it is just symbolic...

In addition, I assume that one quality of "racing" is a shot at "winning." Not a guarantee of winning, but an opportunity to do so, accepting whatever constraining factors I am willing to control for. The biggest one of these is money.

I have a strongly-held opinion that 95% of the amateur racers out there follow something like the Peter Principle but, instead of rising to just past their own professional ability level, the aspire to just above their financial means. Parker Johnstone told me that he won his Renault Cup championship by using the budget he would otherwise have blown struggled around in at the back of a Formula Atlantic field - very wise move, contrary to the "eyes are bigger than plate" approach that a lot of us are guilty of.

Given all of THAT - yes. If all one can afford to actually be competitive in is a rental kart, that is the best answer. Yamaha KT100 karting on an "IT budget" would be great. IT on a Production car allowance? Okie dokie. Of course, the other option would be to actually do a budget and stick to it, rather than setting the credit cards on fire when the $$ runs low, because "I just can't not race, after spending so much getting the car ready!"

If every freshman club racer had entered the game one class-cost step lower than he or she did (e.g., FVee instead of FFord, IT instead of GT), we would have WAY less turnover and fewer failed personal relationships in our ranks.

K

* NOT ALL drivers, a theoretical amateur driver representing the mean in all qualities

EDIT for RJ - you got it backwards, dude. I want someone to scrape the flaming gunge out of MY car.

EDIT the EDIT - $1000 per race would seem cheap, if we also amortized the cost of all of the ancilliary stuff we "have to buy" over the number of races that we run - tow vehicle, trailer, awning, beer, friends, track burgers, beer, tools, Brakleen, plastic bins, ramps, jackstands, tool boxes, beer, coolers, folding chairs, umbrella, extension cords, more tools, hitch for the tow vehicle, tabs and storage for the trailer, more plastic bins, beer, astroturf, trick aluminum jack, blender, stereo for the paddock, fan, more tools, bucket and sponge, new torque wrench because you were dumb enough to loan it out, new folding chair to replace the one you backed over with the tow vehicle, pit bike, first aid kit 'cause you crashed the pit bike, fire extinguisher refill (don't ask), tent to sleep in to save hotel bills, camp stove, sleeping bag, new mattress pad, bigger table and more plastic bins, beer, weights to keep the awning from blowing away, drain pan, new trailer, lock for the new trailer, pistol to keep in the tent, folding kennel for the pooch, and much, much more. Don't forget to divide the net cost of the car by the number of events as well - if you still own the car when you do the math, use the full cost of buying and/or building it to do the math (ie first race costs $15,000; two races = $7500 each; 3 = $5000, etc.)




[Modified by Knestis, 2:55 AM 3/17/2003]

 

Now this is funny

 

All I will say is to not totally trust someone you are buying a race car from unless you know them fairly well. Long story short, the car I bought was fast, but fast because it was illegal. Since Scott refuses to compete in an illegal car, he's spent the past month (with huge help from Blake M.) making the car legal. Now that it's legal, its not so fast anymore. It's a good chassis with lots of potential, it's just going to take time and money to properly (legally) develop it. This was not in my original plan, but its what I'm stuck with.

That said, I'll STILL come out cheaper in the end than I would have had I built the car from scratch. Thats not even taking labor hours into account, thats just raw dollars.

Scott, who had a blast, and won trophies in a car with well under $10K invested in it this weekend.

 

I have built every racecar I have owned (five in total) except one that I bought but actually I oversaw all of and built much of it in the first place too. I really like building cars (well most parts of it). I build all my own engines (have one in progress today) and do basically everything but electrics and exterior painting. But as life gets busier, the car building does slow down. It was much easier as a bachelor or before kids. My problem is that when I want a car, I don't have the up front money to buy it and damned sure wouldn't fianance it. However I can usually put the money together over the time that it takes to build the car.

On the otherhand, I recall a discussion that SCCA and club racers are basically screwed if they want to be racers most of the time because they have to be driver, owner, crew chief, wrench, builder, sponsor, truck driver, etc. There is so little time that usually the actual driving often takes back seat or gets highly compromised by all the other jobs. Even testing is almost non-existant so now the races become the test if you are going to do any development or troubleshooting. Kind of screwed before you start, but we love it so we are out there like Don Quixote tilting windmills.

In the early '90s, I could do a barebones IT race weekend on $400 including tow and racegas, food (a cooler and 1 meal), entry fee, sleep in the tent or van/stations wagon, etc. That included some money for tire and engine wear. Now I'd say $800-1000 is probably more likely as the family requires a cheap motel and real food, fees have gone up, etc. I know open wheel racers who do it for $3000-5000 per weekend but not many can afford that for long.

 

Kirk,

See - there you go again. I agree with just about everything you've said.

I think though, that the average person wants to race a "XXXXXX". Sure there are a few that want generic racing and will go straight to a Spec type class, but I can watch a whole weekends worth of race groups, and aside from the good racing that a minority of the Spec type racers get, good racing is pretty rare.

Scott Giles won the sweepstakes this weekend - he Found a great race. I think the odds of that are not that much worse than those for the average Spec type racer.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT about the money thing - it's where I've made my biggest mistake, but I won't change my approach because I made another great mistake: I fell in love with the car. But you know what: So What? I've managed to dispose of some of my more unrealistic ambitions, and have taken a longer term outlook on this sport that isn't just a passing thing. And I'm going to find good racing on my own terms, not those imposed by the logical fallacy of up-up-up and more-more-more.

Scott, who as a racer may be below average in some categories of common sense...if you ask me it's probably overrated....I just need to have a little bit more than Mirko eh? And speaking from my particular perspective your economic analysis makes very little sense to me - I've got enough sense to know that if all that was true I'd never have started racing....see what I mean?

 

Geeez Kirk, if this isn't hitting the nail on the head, I don't know what is.