Hey I was curious of how many of you guys run stiffer rates in the rear and softer in the front. How does the car respond to this?? Is it actually better or is it dependent on the driver??

 

it's personal preference. japanese tuners set it up stiff front soft rear and vice versa over here.

 

I run GC/Koni 400f/450r with JDM 23mm sway bar, generic rear strut bar, 4 pt bolt in rollbar, and C pillar bar. Car is very neutral on the track. Yes, it is much better than stock setup IMHO


[Modified by EleanoR, 2:24 AM 2/5/2003]

 

personally i like stiffer on the front and softer on the rear...

 

Thanks for the responses so far. Everyone keep them coming. It seems that by putting stiffer rates in the rear that it would create a lot of oversteer. Is this true??

 

Yeah, but most japanese cars set up this way run like 225 width tires up front aand 205s out back, or 205s and 195s.

 

I have 400F/600R..enjoy the setup very much...

I took a page out of the realtime book, only cut the rates in half

 

depends on numerous factors such as tire pressures and simply how high the spring rates are in comparison to each other. I have seen guys who run 600/900 and like it that way. For myself, 400/450 was streetable IMO and provided a nice upgrade from the stock suspension. The car feels extremely neutral now instead of that slight understeer which I disliked. the 23mm sway bar was a nice thing that i felt easily. Maybe a Mugen 24 or 26mm sway bar users will chime in. I never tried that route. I bet you would need high spring rates for those sway bars.


[Modified by EleanoR, 2:42 AM 2/5/2003]

 

Yeah this is an argument that can go on forever

 

It only goes on forever because most people discussing the matter are not capable of a successful analysis of the basic vehicle dynamics involved. The subject has been exhausted - and put to rest.

On a DC2 type chassis the basic cases have been analyzed and explained. Application to the general case is straightforward as well.

At 5-1/2 inches of ground clearance on equal sized Hoosier DOT Radials front and rear you want something like 800F/1100R and a 26mm or larger rear bar. You can drive such a car to the track. My biggest problem with this setup is Understeer as the front's get greasy - the car is Very Loose cold.

At 2-1/2 to 3 inches ground clearance on Real Racing Tires (Like Goodyear Sports Car Specials), you want stiffer springs on the front - 1200-1400F / 1100-1200R, less front compression damping (try Moton, JRZ, etc), still a Huge rear bar, and skinnier tires on the rear. This would be a Trailer-Only car. And you can't run this setup on a very rough track.

Seriously, if you run stiffer springs on the front of a soft high play car and you don't have massive push, it's because your camber settings are stupid, you aren't going very fast, or likely both.

Scott, who doesn't mean to be insulting, but these are the facts.

 

this debate just went on:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=397988

 

Each setup really needs to be done as a whole package: ride height, track width, tire size, etc. Looking at spring rates alone would get you no where.

AFAIK Geratol's car is still daily driven so having it slammed to the ground isn't feasible for him.


[Modified by Wai, 11:32 PM 2/4/2003]

 

Scott, who's glad we've put this one behind us.....well some of us anyway....

 

The intended use for the car must also be considered (pure street, solo II street tire, solo II race tire, road race, dirt track (willard), ice racing).

Scott - camber, caster, toe, track?

 

Sorry, George, but I think your comment is misleading.

The Spoon DC5 is still stiffer in the front, although the rear springs are of a higher rate than those in the front.

One cannot forget that the DC5 does not use double wishbone suspension. I'm sure MK Ultra cannot forget that.

 

 

As you take a front rate biased car stiffer at our typical ride heights it will work better in general - not unlike the rear rate biased car. It's improvement will lag behind the rear rate biased car at each equivalent total roll stiffness datum.

It's difficult to quantify the difference, and in competition with widely varying skill levels there's no reason why a good driver with an inferior setup couldn't do well.

No matter which setup you run, you NEED control over your alignment settings. If you can't set Camber front and rear, you're not even in the game.

To take one set of dampers and expect that you can experiment with both setups is asking alot. You'd need meaningfully independent seperately adjustable compression and rebound, and you'd go thru a fair amount of time and resources optimizing each setup. There's no magic though hiding in the alignment settings, and while you can balance the car with the rear camber setting, the elemental physics will dictate the relative speed of each optimized setup.

Scott, who says they're dumb cars dynamically, with very well defined limits - and the faster you go the more work they are to make work well....

 

For at least the start of this season I will be using equal rates front and rear, 10K, because I can get them cheap.


[Modified by sackdz, 10:18 AM 2/5/2003]

 

Will
-dirt track racer... (soft spring rates and deep treads are wonderful)

 

Nice....

Using what works for someone else is not a good thing.

If you are serious about 'track driving' you will have to play with springs (and have several sets to pick from in your tool box) and pick the one that suits you (and suits you at a sepcific track).

Or be poor like me and use the stock stuff because it comes with the car.



[Modified by Willard, 10:27 AM 2/5/2003]

 

from grassroots november 2002, page 105...
the rear shocks and springs (on new SI and RSX)are mounted near the center of the control arm, changing the motion ratio percentage of the suspension. As a result the wheel rate winds up being considerably lower then the actual spring rate...
in the case of the si..the rear control arms are (a)13 inches long, with the shock mount located (b)8 inches from the pivot point thye motion ratio = the square of b/a, or in the case of the civic/dc5 .378...
so the rear suspension wheel rate is actually a little less the 38% of the spring rate...
like I said, 100% ripped off from GRM november 2002 issue page 105, and o/t, but I hope this clears up the issue of spoon useing stiffer springs in the rear of their DC5

 

Presently:

Eibach ERS 400# F/ 600# R
GC sleeves on Bilstein Sports
Mugen 26mm rear bar
6 point bolt in cage
Front and rear tower bars (OMP F/Spoon R)

Future:

~800 F/~1100R
Custom valved Konis
Corner weighting and alignment
6 pt cage
Mugen 26mm rear bar
Stock Front bar
Front strut bar and no rear strut bar