Eibach and camber problems?
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Eibach and camber problems?
I just picked up some Eibach Sportlines and was wondering if i was going to have to pick up a camber kit or it isn't worth it. I have read that if its anything over 2 inches then you are going to need one. The springs go about 1.8-2.0 so therefore I should be in the clear correct? Anyone know for sure?
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From: Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (Peagreenhatch)
If you keep your tires balanced and alignment done on a reguler basis you should not have a problem. After you put the springs on you should get alignment done and have our camber and toe corrected.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: WA
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (HJ2kcivic)
You need a camber kit with the sportlines..
Believe me now, because 10k+ miles later, your tires will tell you all about it.
I'm talking specifically about the sportlines.. they are pretty low.
Don't listen to people who say you don't need a camber kit with the sportlines. If you need proof, I'll post up a picture of how fucked up the tires were from these springs after about 10k miles on a 2000 civic Si.
Believe me now, because 10k+ miles later, your tires will tell you all about it.
I'm talking specifically about the sportlines.. they are pretty low.
Don't listen to people who say you don't need a camber kit with the sportlines. If you need proof, I'll post up a picture of how fucked up the tires were from these springs after about 10k miles on a 2000 civic Si.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: WA
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (HJ2kcivic)
If you keep your tires balanced and alignment done on a reguler basis you should not have a problem. After you put the springs on you should get alignment done and have our camber and toe corrected.
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (Nameless)
Im sorry, but I am just as low or lower then the sportlines and I have -1.75 of camber with NO TIRE WEAR.
If you lower your car, go get an alignment and tell the alignment tech to set your TOE to ZERO.
this is absolutely the last time I am going to say it.
If you want to waste money on a camber kit because you think it will save your tires, go ahead. But when you get the camber kit, you will still need an alignment anyway.
The only reason to get a camber kit is if you want to set your camber to something specific. You never want a camber kit to set your camber back to zero. This completely defeats the purpose of lowering your car.
You did lower your car for performance didn't you? Camber is good if you like to turn. So leave your camber where its at, or get a camber kit to EVEN it up. Set your TOE to ZERO and you will not wear your tires. Remember TOE=ZERO!
All these people bitching about camber wear didn't get an alignment, didn't get a good alignment, or like to peel out or drag race. I drive my car like a normal person on the street, somewhat "spirited" in the twisties, and I've got over 20K miles on my street tires and they are wearing EVEN. Remember, I have -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Whats the secret... ZERO TOE!
If all you do it drag race, forget everything I said, go get a camber kit, and set your camber to zero.
If you lower your car, go get an alignment and tell the alignment tech to set your TOE to ZERO.
this is absolutely the last time I am going to say it.
If you want to waste money on a camber kit because you think it will save your tires, go ahead. But when you get the camber kit, you will still need an alignment anyway.
The only reason to get a camber kit is if you want to set your camber to something specific. You never want a camber kit to set your camber back to zero. This completely defeats the purpose of lowering your car.
You did lower your car for performance didn't you? Camber is good if you like to turn. So leave your camber where its at, or get a camber kit to EVEN it up. Set your TOE to ZERO and you will not wear your tires. Remember TOE=ZERO!
All these people bitching about camber wear didn't get an alignment, didn't get a good alignment, or like to peel out or drag race. I drive my car like a normal person on the street, somewhat "spirited" in the twisties, and I've got over 20K miles on my street tires and they are wearing EVEN. Remember, I have -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Whats the secret... ZERO TOE!
If all you do it drag race, forget everything I said, go get a camber kit, and set your camber to zero.
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Re: Eibach and camber problems? (tonyXcom)
go get an alignment
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From: WA
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (tonyXcom)
Are you an alignment specialist?
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO".
If there is such an easy way to correct this camber wear... then why on earth does no one talk about it? This is the first time I've heard of it. Is everyone out there stupid when they say you need a camber kit to correct the problem? We used one on my friends car.. and 8,000 miles later the tires are fine...
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO".
If there is such an easy way to correct this camber wear... then why on earth does no one talk about it? This is the first time I've heard of it. Is everyone out there stupid when they say you need a camber kit to correct the problem? We used one on my friends car.. and 8,000 miles later the tires are fine...
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (Nameless)
Are you an alignment specialist?
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO".
If there is such an easy way to correct this camber wear... then why on earth does no one talk about it? This is the first time I've heard of it. Is everyone out there stupid when they say you need a camber kit to correct the problem? We used one on my friends car.. and 8,000 miles later the tires are fine...
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO".
If there is such an easy way to correct this camber wear... then why on earth does no one talk about it? This is the first time I've heard of it. Is everyone out there stupid when they say you need a camber kit to correct the problem? We used one on my friends car.. and 8,000 miles later the tires are fine...
I have explained this in this forum at least a dozen times.
TOE is the relative direction the front of your tires are pointing. When you lower your car, you wheels point towards eachother (TOE IN). So when going forward, your tires are scrubbing on the ground, and wearing out.
Your wheels also gain negative camber when you lower the car. This negative camber in effect places more of the load on the inside of the tire.
So when you are going forward, with TOE IN (or out for that matter) the tires are scrubbing on the inside of your tires, wearing them out on the inside, and giving birth to the term "camber wear."
Simply put, TOE wears out your tires, and camber tells the tire where to wear out.
So even if you get a camber kit and set your camber to zero, your TOE may still be set by your alignment tech to factory specs, which is typically +/- 1 degree of TOE. So even if your tires are still wearing even, they are still wearing prematurely, but evenly since there isn't a camber condition on your car.
Now camber on your wheels can still give you "camber wear" if you peel out alot and drag race.
But trust me, if you want a street driven car that handles, YOU WANT NEGATIVE CAMBER. Anywhere from -1 through -2 degrees is sufficient. If you want a car that turns and don't want to go through tires, then get your TOE set to absolutely ZERO, and stop peeling out.
ZERO= 0
ZERO does not = +/- 1'
On top of that, you can do what you want, I really don't care. I will let my tires and many others on this board speak for themselves.
But this is absoultely the last time I am going to explain it.
Do a search on CAMBER and/or TOE and you should be able to find more in depth explanations on this by myself.
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From: Rochester, NY
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (Nameless)
Are you an alignment specialist?
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO".
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO".
tonyxcom has it RIGHT. Hondas are infamous for incorrect toe causing very fast wear on tires
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: WA
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (owen_the_soyboy)
Are you an alignment specialist?
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO". dude, CHILL OUT, as you dont evenknow what toe is, how can you be so sure you know what you are talking about in camber/tire wear issues?!?!??!!
tonyxcom has it RIGHT. Hondas are infamous for incorrect toe causing very fast wear on tires
Maybe you should explain what the hell "TOE" is, and why it is capitalized with along with "ZERO". dude, CHILL OUT, as you dont evenknow what toe is, how can you be so sure you know what you are talking about in camber/tire wear issues?!?!??!!
tonyxcom has it RIGHT. Hondas are infamous for incorrect toe causing very fast wear on tires
It's a common problem among the cooler honda-tech members with the special titles.
I'm not saying Tony is a dick for telling me this, it's just the arrogant attidude I here from everyone around here that pisses me off. People act like professionals about everything here.. even when it's something they've recently learned for themself. No one can know everything..
Anyways, thanks for explaining it Tony, I feel smarter now. And I had no idea you've written something up about this (I've only been here for 6-12 months).
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (Nameless)
Honestly dude, I really have explained this a BUNCH of times in this very forum. At least once a month.
Sometimes I don't know why I bother. Because everytime I get the same resistance from people that challenge my reasoning, like you did here. But I put up with it everytime and take a few minutes out of my boring day to explain it..again.
But alas, this is the last time.
I am passing the torch on this one.
Glad you learned something.
Sometimes I don't know why I bother. Because everytime I get the same resistance from people that challenge my reasoning, like you did here. But I put up with it everytime and take a few minutes out of my boring day to explain it..again.
But alas, this is the last time.
I am passing the torch on this one.
Glad you learned something.
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From: NC
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (tonyXcom)
Im sorry, but I am just as low or lower then the sportlines and I have -1.75 of camber with NO TIRE WEAR.
If you lower your car, go get an alignment and tell the alignment tech to set your TOE to ZERO.
this is absolutely the last time I am going to say it.
If you want to waste money on a camber kit because you think it will save your tires, go ahead. But when you get the camber kit, you will still need an alignment anyway.
this is absolutely the last time I am going to say it.
If you want to waste money on a camber kit because you think it will save your tires, go ahead. But when you get the camber kit, you will still need an alignment anyway.
The only reason to get a camber kit is if you want to set your camber to something specific. You never want a camber kit to set your camber back to zero. This completely defeats the purpose of lowering your car.
You did lower your car for performance didn't you? Camber is good if you like to turn. So leave your camber where its at, or get a camber kit to EVEN it up. Set your TOE to ZERO and you will not wear your tires. Remember TOE=ZERO!
All these people bitching about camber wear didn't get an alignment, didn't get a good alignment, or like to peel out or drag race. I drive my car like a normal person on the street, somewhat "spirited" in the twisties, and I've got over 20K miles on my street tires and they are wearing EVEN. Remember, I have -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Whats the secret... ZERO TOE!
All these people bitching about camber wear didn't get an alignment, didn't get a good alignment, or like to peel out or drag race. I drive my car like a normal person on the street, somewhat "spirited" in the twisties, and I've got over 20K miles on my street tires and they are wearing EVEN. Remember, I have -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Whats the secret... ZERO TOE!
I'm sorry, zero toe will not save your tires. If you have excessive negative camber, you will get premature tire wear... plain and simple. However it really depends on how much sidewall you have. More will probably yield less wear, and less, more wear. How much air pressure you run will also make a difference. Getting a good alignment won't matter because they can't correct for excessive camber (without a camber kit). Its a simple matter of geometry and physics... If you lean something on its side, you rub the corner off.
You stated that your numbers are at -1.75. That is out of spec, but really not bad at all. I think that I'm at like -1.2 and -1.4 in the rear and the wear is fine. Its the people at like -3 negative camber that are going to eat up their tires in less than a year. Your camber angles are not bad enough to really wear out your tires. So in your case the only angle to be concerned with is toe and as you said, zero toe and you will be fine. However if you drop your car some more, you will start to see the effects of excessive negative camber.
If all you do it drag race, forget everything I said, go get a camber kit, and set your camber to zero.
[Modified by kommon_sense, 9:42 PM 2/3/2003]
[Modified by kommon_sense, 9:46 PM 2/3/2003]
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From: NC
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (SOHC_MShue)
what if i just get the eibach pro kit. Will i have to adjust anything other than just getting an alignment?
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (kommon_sense)
Im sorry, but I am just as low or lower then the sportlines and I have -1.75 of camber with NO TIRE WEAR.
Tire wear will also depend on what size rims you have as well. Someone on 17s is gonna get more wear that someone with 15s.
If you lower your car, go get an alignment and tell the alignment tech to set your TOE to ZERO.
this is absolutely the last time I am going to say it.
If you want to waste money on a camber kit because you think it will save your tires, go ahead. But when you get the camber kit, you will still need an alignment anyway.
Camber kit or no, you need an alignment.
The only reason to get a camber kit is if you want to set your camber to something specific. You never want a camber kit to set your camber back to zero. This completely defeats the purpose of lowering your car.
Not entirely.
You did lower your car for performance didn't you? Camber is good if you like to turn. So leave your camber where its at, or get a camber kit to EVEN it up. Set your TOE to ZERO and you will not wear your tires. Remember TOE=ZERO!
All these people bitching about camber wear didn't get an alignment, didn't get a good alignment, or like to peel out or drag race. I drive my car like a normal person on the street, somewhat "spirited" in the twisties, and I've got over 20K miles on my street tires and they are wearing EVEN. Remember, I have -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Whats the secret... ZERO TOE!
As for performance, unless you are road-racing, you won't push your car hard enough to really take advantage of excessive negative camber (I'm talking like -2 or more deg).
I'm sorry, zero toe will not save your tires. If you have excessive negative camber, you will get premature tire wear... plain and simple. However it really depends on how much sidewall you have. More will probably yield less wear, and less, more wear. How much air pressure you run will also make a difference. Getting a good alignment won't matter because they can't correct for excessive camber (without a camber kit). Its a simple matter of geometry and physics... If you lean something on its side, you rub the corner off.
You stated that your numbers are at -1.75. That is out of spec, but really not bad at all. I think that I'm at like -1.2 and -1.4 in the rear and the wear is fine. Its the people at like -3 negative camber that are going to eat up their tires in less than a year. Your camber angles are not bad enough to really wear out your tires. So in your case the only angle to be concerned with is toe and as you said, zero toe and you will be fine. However if you drop your car some more, you will start to see the effects of excessive negative camber.
If all you do it drag race, forget everything I said, go get a camber kit, and set your camber to zero.
Tire wear will also depend on what size rims you have as well. Someone on 17s is gonna get more wear that someone with 15s.
If you lower your car, go get an alignment and tell the alignment tech to set your TOE to ZERO.
this is absolutely the last time I am going to say it.
If you want to waste money on a camber kit because you think it will save your tires, go ahead. But when you get the camber kit, you will still need an alignment anyway.
Camber kit or no, you need an alignment.
The only reason to get a camber kit is if you want to set your camber to something specific. You never want a camber kit to set your camber back to zero. This completely defeats the purpose of lowering your car.
Not entirely.
You did lower your car for performance didn't you? Camber is good if you like to turn. So leave your camber where its at, or get a camber kit to EVEN it up. Set your TOE to ZERO and you will not wear your tires. Remember TOE=ZERO!
All these people bitching about camber wear didn't get an alignment, didn't get a good alignment, or like to peel out or drag race. I drive my car like a normal person on the street, somewhat "spirited" in the twisties, and I've got over 20K miles on my street tires and they are wearing EVEN. Remember, I have -1.75 in front and -1.5 in back. Whats the secret... ZERO TOE!
As for performance, unless you are road-racing, you won't push your car hard enough to really take advantage of excessive negative camber (I'm talking like -2 or more deg).
I'm sorry, zero toe will not save your tires. If you have excessive negative camber, you will get premature tire wear... plain and simple. However it really depends on how much sidewall you have. More will probably yield less wear, and less, more wear. How much air pressure you run will also make a difference. Getting a good alignment won't matter because they can't correct for excessive camber (without a camber kit). Its a simple matter of geometry and physics... If you lean something on its side, you rub the corner off.
You stated that your numbers are at -1.75. That is out of spec, but really not bad at all. I think that I'm at like -1.2 and -1.4 in the rear and the wear is fine. Its the people at like -3 negative camber that are going to eat up their tires in less than a year. Your camber angles are not bad enough to really wear out your tires. So in your case the only angle to be concerned with is toe and as you said, zero toe and you will be fine. However if you drop your car some more, you will start to see the effects of excessive negative camber.
If all you do it drag race, forget everything I said, go get a camber kit, and set your camber to zero.
You dont have to be a road racer to see the benifits of camber. You will notice a big difference at something as slow as an autoX.
-1.75 is what I had my camber set to with my camber kit.
On top of that, I am not sure why you replied, you mirrored everything I have already said and and added some stuff that was addressed in previous posts in this thread.
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From: Southern California
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (tonyXcom)
tonyX
hit everything right on the head. i urge all you people to log onto google.com and type in " toe camber oversteer understeer" etc etc and really read. you will learn a lot and cure a lot of your misconceptions.
hit everything right on the head. i urge all you people to log onto google.com and type in " toe camber oversteer understeer" etc etc and really read. you will learn a lot and cure a lot of your misconceptions.
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From: NC
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (tonyXcom)
You basically mirrored everything I said. Not sure what you wanted to add.
You dont have to be a road racer to see the benifits of camber. You will notice a big difference at something as slow as an autoX.
-1.75 is what I had my camber set to with my camber kit.
On top of that, I am not sure why you replied, you mirrored everything I have already said and and added some stuff that was addressed in previous posts in this thread.
You dont have to be a road racer to see the benifits of camber. You will notice a big difference at something as slow as an autoX.
-1.75 is what I had my camber set to with my camber kit.
On top of that, I am not sure why you replied, you mirrored everything I have already said and and added some stuff that was addressed in previous posts in this thread.
Also, you didn't seem to mention in previous posts that you had a camber kit yourself? Maybe its because its 2am and I should be in bed, but seems odd that you would tell someone to just set their toe, camber doesn't matter and they don't need a camber kit when you have a camber kit yourself.
Re: Eibach and camber problems? (kommon_sense)
You basically mirrored everything I said. Not sure what you wanted to add.
You dont have to be a road racer to see the benifits of camber. You will notice a big difference at something as slow as an autoX.
-1.75 is what I had my camber set to with my camber kit.
On top of that, I am not sure why you replied, you mirrored everything I have already said and and added some stuff that was addressed in previous posts in this thread.
you seemed to be rather adamant that setting the toe angle was the magic to prevent tire wear. That isn't the case at all. Toe is only a part of what causes wear. Excessive negative Camber will eat up a tire every bit as fast as improper toe. In your scenario of -1.75, that isn't enough to cause wear.
Also, you didn't seem to mention in previous posts that you had a camber kit yourself? Maybe its because its 2am and I should be in bed, but seems odd that you would tell someone to just set their toe, camber doesn't matter and they don't need a camber kit when you have a camber kit yourself.
You dont have to be a road racer to see the benifits of camber. You will notice a big difference at something as slow as an autoX.
-1.75 is what I had my camber set to with my camber kit.
On top of that, I am not sure why you replied, you mirrored everything I have already said and and added some stuff that was addressed in previous posts in this thread.
you seemed to be rather adamant that setting the toe angle was the magic to prevent tire wear. That isn't the case at all. Toe is only a part of what causes wear. Excessive negative Camber will eat up a tire every bit as fast as improper toe. In your scenario of -1.75, that isn't enough to cause wear.
Also, you didn't seem to mention in previous posts that you had a camber kit yourself? Maybe its because its 2am and I should be in bed, but seems odd that you would tell someone to just set their toe, camber doesn't matter and they don't need a camber kit when you have a camber kit yourself.
But most people get camber kits for all the wrong reasons. They see their tires cambered and thinks that is why their tires are running out.
And again, like I mentioned in this post a few times, I was not planning on going through every scenario all over again like I have in other posts. I was speaking generally, but more inline with what the poster of this thread will be up against, and I don't think he needs to spend the money on a camber kit.
People get camber kits, go get an alignment like they should have in the first place, then they think it was the camber kit that fixed their tire wear problems.
My entire point is that if you go get an alignment after you lower your car and dont bother with the camber kit, you will not have tire wear problems either, assuming you get your TOE set to Zero.
But there are tons of other variables when it comes to TOE, since TOE-in/out can affect how your car turns in etc.
Bottom line, if you lower your car, 90% of the time you dont need a camber kit.
But it's your money and your car. Do what you want.
And this is why I don't like to explain this all the time. Last time.
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