From the very beginning Honda has been a car manufacturer with many surprises. There were no other car manufacturers that tied performance with reliability and economy and it seems that no car companies at the time thought that it was possible!! This is where the bar was set. But now as they continue to build cars, I see that the quality has gone down alot, especially since most of the cars are being built here; no offense. Build quality has gone down while engine technology/reliability has gone up, but that's about it!! Look at the new platform and compare it to the ones 95% made in Japan. For example all the cars in the new Honda/Acura platform except for the Civic, CR-V, S-2000, RSX, RL, and NSX are 95% made somewhere in the U.S./Canada. From what I've seen the Japanese built cars are built alot better than the ones built here such as the Accord, Pilot, MDX, CL, TL,etc. I own two Honda's, a '99 Accord V-6 and a '00 ITR. They are completely different and its noticable. The build quality of the R surpasses that from the Accord. The Accord doesn't look and feel as solid the R, especially the interior. You can see how cheap the quality of the plastics used in the Accord is when compared to the R. The leather; well compared to a GS-R interior, the leather in the Accord is inferior. Here's a big one, the transmission. The Accord automatic transmission is a complete POS; You can feel a big delay in shifts and the jerks. A buddy of mine with an Auto LS Integra has shifts that are nice and quick. So here's a list from what I've observed:

<U>Honda U.S. vs. Honda Japan</U>

<U>Transmissions</U>

<U>U.S.</U>
Well there are numerous cases of transmission failures in the 98+ Accord, CL, and TL. They're jerky and break. Even the new CL-S 6-speed has tranny problems.

<U>Japan</U>
Common now, its been said over and over again that Honda (Japanese made models only) manual transmissions are one of the best ever created. Examples: The Integra Type R, the NSX, the S-2000, the Prelude, and eh Si.

<U>Engine</U>
Regardless of place of origin, Honda engines are incredible!!! Enough said. You NEVER hear of engine failures. Japanese made 4-cylinders and 6-cylinder NSX, and American made V-6's. Look even the new Accord manages to pull 240 hp from a 3.0 liter V-6.

<U>Interior</U>
Hands down, the Japanese built cars have a far more better quality interior while the American built has a better looking.

<U>Reliability</U>
They're both extremely reliable.

Down to the basics

<U>Pros for American built</U>
1.) Powerful Engine
2.) Available Features
3.) Cost
4.) Reliabilty
5.) Maintenance

<U>Cons for American built</U>
1.) Transmissions
2.) Use of lower grade plastics
3.) Build quality
4.) Cheapness
5.) Depreciation

<U>Pros for Japanese Built</U>
1.) A marvel of an engine
2.) PERFECTLY geared and built transmissions
3.) Build quality
4.) Reliabily
5.) Economy
6.) Cost; well depends on the model and what you're looking for
7.) Maintenance

<U>Cons of Japanese Built</U>
1.) Cheapness is found but in fewer areas
2.) Cost; no matter what its still a Honda
3.) Depreciation

To come down to it, the Japanese built models are expensive compared to its competitors, but the American built is priced just about right with the exception of its Cons. Regardless, it depends on what you're looking for and the tradeoffs it comes with.

<U>Today's cars compared to what Honda offers</U>

1.) Civic; a subtitute is definitely the Neon SRT
2.) Accord; for what its priced; nothing can touch it; **** you Camry
3.) S2000; a subtitute is the Z4, Boxter
4.) RSX-S; a subtitute is the WRX
5.) CL-S; a subtitute could be the G35 coupe, Lexus IS300, BMW 330ci, MB CLK
6.) TL; a subtitute could be G35 sedan, 330 i, IS 300, I35, IS300
6.) RL; its basically dead but Lexus GS, 5 series, MB E-class
7.) NSX; hate to say it but 350Z, Corvette, Carrera, M3
8.) MDX; sells very well but competitor is : BMW X5, MB M-class, Lexus RX, XC90

<U>What should Honda do??</U>
From what I've seen a lot of people are selling they're Honda's for the subtitutes with the exception of the NSX primarily because of performance. So in order to keep its philosophy, Honda of Japan should start experimenting with 6 and 8 cylinder engines, definitely offer RWD and when possible AWD, offer a car that will compete with the Z, upcoming Supra, and GTR for about the same cost, and make the NSX an exotic compared to the 911 Turbo, 360 Modena, etc. without the super-exotic cost. I don't want to say this but experiment turbocharging technology as well.
-Justin

 

Somethings you will never see from Honda:
1. Turbo
2. Quickly producting a car to 'match' other companies - (i.e., evo, wrx sti, 350z, etc)
3. V8's in their sports cars, and V6's in their compact sports cars.

My ITR, '00 Si and '95 Civic Ex Coupe were superbly made, especially my ITR. Transmission-wise, my '00 Si and '01 ITR trannys are both excellent. I had an automagic trans in my '95 Ex, and it was jerky, as is my Mom's '98 Accord V6. Speaking of which, the '98 Accord feels 'cheap' in comparison to the ITR.

Honda doesn't 'jump' to trends. notice how Mitsubishi, Toyota, Mazda and Nissan all had to take higher-end sports cars out of the US: 3000GT, Supra, RX-7, 300zx. Besides the prelude (definitely not in the same class), when has honda ever pulled a car like that for several/many years? Never.

 

uhh...ok

 

cough honda city cough

 

It is said by the editors of Motor Trend that the new accord's auto tranny shifts just like a Mercedes.

 

turbos all over japan dood

my 95 ex coupe was a piece. made in ohio too.
american made has very little quality and thus i will refuse to buy
only made in japan for me.

 

previously they had the City Turbo and now a 1.5L turbo in the Fit


yshi - who saw some honda engineers driving around town in a Fit 2 weeks ago

 

Dude the Accord I have shifted nice and strong like a Mercedes when I first got it; after 3 years, its now a piece of ****!! That's why I think Japanese manufactured Honda's are Excellent.
-Justin


[Modified by importtuner, 10:30 PM 1/9/2003]

 

mercedes auto tranny sucks ***

 

opinions are like ********, everyone has one. what are you talking about when you say a con is depreciation ? honda has been and still is one of the lowest depriciation rate cars. there are no american cars out there that dont lose AT LEAST 10% of their value when they drive off the lot. where did you come up with the replacement/ comparable cars to the honda/acura cars? you say "this is what i have seen" do you job hop between every car dealer on US-1 and know "what everyone is trading in their honda/acura cars for". it certainly isnt based on price-point. I mean a 350Z to an NSX? are you out of your freaking mind? dont get me wrong, I agree the american auto worker is an overpaid, slack *** piece of **** that thinks quality comes in a can with the words "lat light" printed on the label. I just think ALL your comparisons should have a common thread IE pricepoint, Horsepower, or target market.


[Modified by SlapSmak, 11:06 PM 1/9/2003]

 

I disagree with some of your points.

1) Maybe you're right on this one, but they sure don't hesitate to bring out the fastest stock Jet Ski on the water! (3 cyl DOHC turbo makes 160 hp)!
2) I think Honda has no other choice than to compete. We might not see an AWD turbo car anytime soon, but look at the new USDM Accord. It has more hp than the JDM Accord. I heard that was due to sales lost to the new Maximas and Altimas.
3) I doubt we'll see V6 Honda Sport Compacts, but I know they were working on a V8 NSX for quite sometime. I sure wished it would've come out. Maybe it still will eventually.


[Modified by Yellow Dragon, 5:13 PM 1/9/2003]

 

My thoughts on Honda:

They were once an exceptional company in that their race engineers were also the guys designing their road cars. In fact, in the old days all of Hondas engineers started out in the racing department. And the company was run by engineers and enthusiasts instead of bean counters.

Then they dropped out of F1 (and they've sucked ever since they came back), and replaced the Integra with an overweight piece of **** with strut suspension. I lost interest in Honda after that.

**** Honda. Honda sucks.

 

This is the same thing that happened to many other entheusiast-based car companies. Take BMW, the E30 M3 was edgy, noisy and lightweight(german ITR ). Now the M3 is an overweight POS with squishy seats, auto trannies, and traction control/ASC for ham-fisted rich guys. Makes me sick.

 

I just don't see Honda jumping on anyone's bandwagon to compete with other companies. AWD Turbo Honda to match the EVO/WRX STi invasion?? Not happening. They DID upgrade the Accord, I was suprised. Honda seems to be a bit more conservative, and slower to change. Well, they seem to make slow, calculated decisions.

I agree about the US made Hondas. Sad, really. My old 95 EX and Mom's 98 Accord V6, really poor compared to the ITR.

Honda HAS to move in new directions to stay competitive, but I doubt they'll do anything to drastic.

 

All car companies with the exception of niche brands have "dumbed" their cars down.

Honda dropped out of F1 in the nineties because they had conquered and I do mean Conquered F1. They needed a new and fresh challenge. So what did they do? They went to CART and I hate to be repetitive here but conquered that as well! Honda knows how to win. Check out the various motorsport championships they have. Soon Honda will bring the rest of F1 to their knees!




[Modified by Honda F1, 5:35 PM 1/9/2003]

 

It was posted a while back on honda-tech, I think I even have a picture of it on my old computer. Honda mass produced a car (I think it was the predecessor to the life) in the late eighties or early 90s that was turbocharged. Then Mugen decked out the car and it ran high 12's I believe? Hehe.

 

Good post

One thing you gotta understand about Honda. Until recently, Honda has never really catered to the "wants" and "demands" of the general public to the degree that companies like Toyota does. They're pretty much the lone wolf on the car industry. The reason why Toyota is so much more successful than any other car manufacturer is:

#1. They concentrate mostly on cars and trucks, whereas Honda has motorcycles, lawn equipment, motorized tools, even bicycles...and Mitsubishi isn't really even a car comapny in Japan; they have their thumbs in everyone's pie.

#2. Toyota's marketing strategy is FAR superior to (and somewhat dirtier) than any of its competors. They are the Microsoft of the car industry. And Honda is like Apple or Linux. Last year, they even admitted that they were out to put Honda out of business.

#3. Toyota caters to what the general public asks for (part of their marketing strategy) If a large amount of public wants a electric powered car, Toyota will have one out within a year. Honda on the other had doesn't care. It caters to Honda loyalists and people who genrally appreciate new technology, which Honda is really into. Honda will make something they like based on their basic design principal, and sell it wether the public asks for it or not. Honda even announced recently that in the near future, they will not only be doing motorized products, but will expand into home robotics (eg ASIMO).

But recently, as we've seen with the Civic and Interga, and the rash of family orientated vehicles like the many mini-vans and SUVs...Honda is slowly leaning towards listening to what the general public wants, instead of only what the enthusiasts and die-hards want.
Conversely, Toyota is leaning toward developing their technology, which in the past has been highly dependant on Yamaha technology. (Example: Toyota in F-1 in 2001, and the IRL beginning this year) as well as rumors of developing a supercar that will outshine both the GT-R and NS-X in pice and performance.

Is this the right move for Honda? That has yet to be proven; but peliminary sales figures show that Honda's sales are increasing. What does that mean for us? Possibly more mundane underpowered high economy cars with low emissions, and less high powered, screaming, gas guzzling, super sub-compacts from Honda. This is especially the case for the States

just my opinion....

 

Horseshit.

They're going to suck for a few more years (and get their asses kicked by Toyota) and drop out again like the worthless losers they are.

I hope Toyota succeeds in putting Honda out of business.

 

I don't think Honda has totally forgot about the enthusiasts its just that they have more important markets to cater to right now. Honda is not at the point where they can meet demand on the Pilot, Odyssey, and to a lesser extent the CR-V, as well as the Element and MDX. In that respect there are 10's of thousands of vehicles that Honda can't sell because they don't have the capacity yet. It only makes business sense to try to meet the demand for the vehicles that will move 50K-100K+ units per year before going after the 15K-30K vehicles like sports cars.

That said, we all know how important performance is to a company's image and no customers are more loyal and fervent supporters than performance customers. At the very least we should've gotten the DC5R from the start, and the Si should have been priced at $17,500 or should have had more power and better tires so it could at least win against the damned SVT Fuucus...

As for Toyota, Honda definitely has to be aggressive and focus on making excellent high-volume products in order to take on the behemoth. Hopefully the next steps for Honda will be a highly capable full-sized truck, bringing the Fit/Jazz under the Civic, and getting some volume out of the TSX, new TL, and RL.

EDIT:
As for Formula One, hopefully Honda will soon return to their dominating days (like the turbo era). With Honda pulling out of CART, Honda Racing of JPN can focus completely on F1 and let HPD in the USA take care of IRL (which is of no interest to me and probably many Honda fans).


[Modified by JMU R1, 12:36 AM 1/10/2003]

 

So Honda will never produce a turbo motor?
what about---&gt;
Introducing the new two-passenger personal watercraft in the Honda AquaTrax family: the new AquaTrax R-12X. With its turbocharged 1235cc engine, incredible class-leading maneuverability and impressive power-to-weight ratio, it's the highest-performing PWC on the water—period.

Available Spring 2003

 

Honda does have some turbo charged cars as well as awd cars in their domestic lineup.

Examples:

Honda Dunk Turbo
Honda City Turbo (no longer in the linup)
Honda Z Turbo

Honda CR-V AWD
Honda Integra Xi AWD
Honda Odessey AWD

some more I can't remeber off hand

 

i don't really like the direction honda is headed.

 

Its funny, but I've actually sat down and thought about this topic for a while. I've always been a fan of hondas. I think they are great cars that give you a lot for the money, the R in especially. Lately though, I've seen what other companies are producing and it just astounds me that the automotive companies have actually picked up on this "affordable sport compact" thing.

It just seems to me that Honda is becomming a bit stale in regards to their sport compacts. I adore my R, but frankly, I'd hardly consider the RSX and new Si worthy contenders in the fight against other companies' sport compacts.

Honda will be fine, for now. These upcoming cars have yet to prove themselves. Before, most companies just didnt "get it". We as consumers wanted a well-rounded car that was fast, looked good, braked well, handled well, and was cheap. Hondas always fit the bill for that in their sport compact lineup. The only difference now is that other companies have somewhat "got it" as well. They are releasing tuner friendly cars that are relatively cheap and have some tuning potential.

I'm definitely pulling for Honda here, and I'm sure they won't dedicate all their time to selling accords, crv's, and abondon the fellow sport compact enthusiasts. It is clear that they need to do something though to compete, and I'm sure we can all count on them to do so.


Here's to the future.....


[Modified by JuJu, 7:30 PM 1/9/2003]

 

I agree the build quality of newer honda's have gone down. Highly noticeable with the interior. My friends 99 civic has cheap *** plastic everywhere.

 

Yup, Honda cars are becoming less appealing to me. My next car purchase will not be a Honda. I have owned 3 Honda Civics (89, 89, 94) and an Integra now. The product line is just losing its appeal.