I have totally revamped my suspension w/ a full poly bushing kit, extreme rx springs and tokico illuminas, as well as all ball joints and rod ends. I thought it would handle great, I am a little disappointed---the rear end just feels like it trying to catch up to the front all the time, still feels a bit sloppy---can you clue me in on your suspension tuning tricks or techniques, I want better response from my susp. Thanx


[Modified by Ef *****, 10:37 PM 12/25/2002]

 

extreme rx springs? who makes those? i'm sorry, but you need to do research before you make decisions about suspension, especially if you wanna make it handle.. i hate to say it, but it's true. you did the same thing i did..

now, as for what you can do now.. i recommend changing your springs, first off.. can you get the car to "rotate", not spin, but rotate easily? as in well, it would make it easier to spin? what swaybars do you have?

my personal recommendations for springs are to use Ground control sleeves, with 350lb front and about 400-425 lb rear springs.. as for a swaybar, get an Si front, and snag an ADDCO rear only swaybar..

also, what tires are you running? tires and tire pressure make a LARGE difference in handling.. if you want, bump the rear tire pressures up about 4lbs than front.. i normally run the fronts about 2lbs above stock pressure...

also, if you go with a coilover/sleeve setup, don't "slam" it.. leave about a 1-2 finger gap on the wheel wells, and find a tuner shop in your area that can corner weight the car.. good luck! any more questions, ask.. i'm sure Driven will respond to this post, if he sees it.. if not, PM him and see what he recommends..

 

in case you are wondering what i'm running, it's as follows:

Prothane poly bushing kit
Koni Yellow shocks
500lb front and 550lb rear springs
ADDCO rear swaybar, stock Si front
13x8 Diamond racing wheels and 235-45/13 Khumo Ecsta V700's..

 

Thanx, my hatch is already an Si so the swaybars are stock---The springs are Sprint Extremes (3.25f/3.0r), and shock are Illuminas set fully stiff. As well as the energy master kit. I am not trying to buy anything else like ground controls, a I asked for tips on dialing it in better. I have Bridgestone Ta Hr4's 195/60/14 @28 psi.

 

I'll take a stab. It sounds like your tire pressure is too low. Some of the sloppiness you are experiencing could be from tire rollover. Bump the pressure to 35 psi and see what happens.

Also, with a drop that low, your springs are probably very stiff. This will cause your car to handle worse on uneven surfaces (like most streets) as the car isn't maintaining tire contact. Nothing you can do about spring stiffness without changing springs, but try to soften your shocks. I'm also not entirely sure the Illuminas are up to the job of damping a race-stiffness spring.

I know you don't want to hear it, but ideally you want better tires and softer springs for a really good handling street setup.

BTW, maybe you could be a bit more specific with you description of the problem. The rear catching up to the front doesn't give us much to work with.


[Modified by tylerdurden, 11:57 PM 12/25/2002]

 

Running a 60 series tire will cause some "Slop" because it takes a 'lil bit longer for the tire to respond to steering inputs compared to a 50 or 40 series tire. I have 205/50/15 toyo's on my civic and it felt fine for the 2 weeks i got to drive it before the motor went. Since then i've put in a full poly suspension from energy suspension, Koni adjustables and eibach springs and soon an Addco or Saner swaybar(s). Hopefully it does good but i won't know till my motor is done.
Good luck!

 

it's hard to dial it in better if you don't have anything you can dial in.. just letting you know...

as for the shocks, off the shelf tokicos CAN'T handle something that low.. 2 inches, max, for a quality ride and means of adjustability.. your springs are really your only limiting factor right now, because if you changed those, then the handling should come together.. but, since you don't want to do that, other than tuning your tire pressures there isn't much you can do..

and please explain what the conditions are.. is the car oversteering, or understeering?

 

Throw those springs out and get a reasonable drop if you want your car to handle! Other than that, it sounds like your car is handling about like it should for that low of a drop. Generally the front shock will max out and ride the bumstop right away, making it "feel" responsive, and the rear will have a little travel left on it so it will actaully get damped vs the front and make it "feel sloppy. Make sure your rear trailing arm bushings aren't cracked or broken too.

 

By dialing I just meant tips that some of u might have to share--my bushings are all new---the car rides real stiff, i am pleased with ride, it's just the rear feels like f%&king slop during cornering---i think i am going to bump up the pressure, and invest in a fatter mm. rear sway, cause that toothpick Si aint cuttin' it--Who has a upgraded rear sway bar, what make/how much, and is the improvement in handling noticeable?---input would be great. BTW it when i am taking a hard right/left turn @45/50 mph, the rear feels like it wants to roll out the other way----this may sound pathetic but i never was really told the diff between over/understeer so please clarify it. Thanx a lot


[Modified by Ef *****, 6:26 AM 12/26/2002]

 

unbolt the front sway bar and see what happens

 

driven i know u autocross and what not but that just sounds to me unsafe, can u explain what itll' do?

 

umm...I'll just give a few tips since I agree with what everyone said already hehe.

Rear sway bars are great little devices. Progress, suspension techinques, and nuespeed all make like 22mm bars (thats off the top of my head, i'm sure there are more).

With the 60 series tires plus depending on the tire PSI your running, this might explain some of the odd rolling action your feeling. I sometimes start my car at like 37psi in the front and low 30's in the rear...work the car from there. I also start my tockios at 3 in the front and 5 in the rear, and again work with it from there. This is just a little something I do at the start of each race, I have a good idea on how the car is gonna react with the tires and shocks set like that...after a run or so I begin to move it around to suit the course some more.

If all else fails, disconnect the front bar hehe. Its pretty easy I know alot of people disconnect one endlink just for autox so they can reconnect it to go home.

ummm....beyond that your springs are definally a little on the low side. The shocks might be getting overloaded with springs that low. If your lookin for just springs to get not coilovers like ground controls, progress springs drop about 2 inches and have really good spring rates for autox (i've driven 4th gen civics with them I was really impressed). Ok, enough ranting, hope that helps a bit.

 

thanks habib, tommorrow im gonna f&*k around w/ the pressure and see whats up....thing is though with my springs, i like that height and I just dont want adj. coils because all my friends Gc's w/ illuminas ride way to bouncy and mine dont.... they are unbelievably smooth---so is there like a 2.75" spring that u would reccomend that isnt too bouncy---i just hate wheel gap--thanx

 

lol, i'm sorry I don't get paid to do this, but again i'm gonna say progress springs. reason I always do, I got my Si within the same setup as my friends Si mod for mod on suspension, only difference was springs that was it. I thought my car was pretty good and his would be compareable with his progress springs. His car just feels FAR more balanced in a turn than my car, anytime I drive his car I can beat my car in it just barely. He's a pic of it, so you can see the drop and judge for yourself. (I know its leaning, best pic I could find though)

http://neonmike.8m.net/vgpsolo/tealsi.jpg

And since I like to ***** my car out , this is my eibach pro's hard at work doing nothing for me hehe.

http://neonmike.8m.net/vgpsolo/blacksi4.jpg

 

yeah its leaning, lemme ask this way---with the progress's how many fingers can u fit between the tire and the fender, turning your hand vertically, im assuming u have 14's...just gimme a ballpark figure i am gonna look into a 16 inch wheel/tire setup my friends keep saying itll do wonders for handling, and somethimg about lightening my unsprung weight.


[Modified by Ef *****, 7:34 AM 12/26/2002]


[Modified by Ef *****, 7:35 AM 12/26/2002]

 

top of my head, my friend in the teal one runs 16's on the street. You can fit maybe 1-2 fingers in there with the progress springs. With mine I usually have 15's for the street, its about 2-3 fingers but those are the eibachs for you.

 

good looking on the help, now i'll probably be blowing my x-mas loot on springs and a wheel package---most likely black rota rnr's w/azenis 205/40/16---any opinions on the azenis?

 

azenis don't come in that size they are 215/45//16 i believe.

 

hey, now!! i autocross too! just because i don't have any "fancy" videos to prove it. hahahaa j/k..

as for the wheels/tires, i'd have to say go with 15's.. and look into other tires than just the Falkens. i really like my Bridgestone Potenza S-03's..

and 2-3 finger wheel gap is quite ideal..

oversteer: when the rear of the car tries to pass the front.
understeer: when you try and turn the car just keeps going straight.

it sounds almost like you are complaining of unpredictable oversteer.. all autoxers are wanting oversteer, but it needs to be predictable in order to be able to drive comfortably..

btw, i'd recommend and ADDCO rear swaybar..

 

i wouldn't lower the car more than 5" measured from the ground to the lip on the jack point.

if you are concerned with looks ("i just hate wheel gap") then you might not get the best handling car. you will have to comprmoise to get a great handling car.

also like rexman said, the drop is way too much for those illuminas. and your friend's ride is bouncy b/c the springs he has is overworking the shocks. if the car is too low and the spring rate high enough, the shocks will become over worked. i bet if he raised up the car >0.5", the car rides much better.

i would go with 15" wheels. i have 16" and well, i wish i had 15s. i have 14s going on but that is b/c i will be doing some SCCA racing.

 

How to make your car handle, from cheapest/easiest... to the most expensive/hardest:

- Tyre pressures... easiest way to make your car go from off-throttle understeer to off-throttle oversteer (free)
- disconnect one endlink off the front sway bar... this will make the front end "softer"...allowing the rear end of the car to be the "stiffer" end, which will allow the car to rotate easier (free)
- get a Suspension Technique sway bar... it's adjustable. Easy to install ($150).
- get some good springs... Eibach pro-kits are a good option ($200?), or go all out and get Ground Controls ($300)
- stickier tyres... the ultimate in making your car handle ($300-$800)
- get Koni Yellows revalves... get them matched with the springs/spring rate you're running ($500ish)
- get some full blown coilovers... a bit overkill, but you could get teins or something outrageous like that ($1200+)


hope that helps

 

im using
koni yellows
550F/400R
22mm ST sway
hyperflex bushing kit
prothane rear trailing arm bushings.

a GOOD FWD car will have a very loose tail. itll swing when u want it to so u can throttle steer.

 

i guess its time to do some work...