it's a little debate we have going on, so i'm wondering who feels that an integra brake setup is an upgrade over the stock dx brakes.
the front rotors are over 1" bigger and now there are discs in the back.
stock rotors on the right, integra on the left, and rear discs in the middle.

 

wow, Havok, that's mature.

Hey, Havok, we'll do this.

I'll go build a ITA CRX Si (D16A, I/h/e, stock size brakes, rear drums, Koni + GC)...

and you bring that uber-jdm sweet Type R crap. We'll go to a road course and see who wins.

Stock si brakes are just fine for road racing...ask http://www.improvedtouring.com. Hell, ask the road racing/autocrossing forum.

 

This is for DRiven and Hamed......OK first where in his post does he say anything about Type R brakes?? Second he was asking for opinions on if the upgrades were a noticable difference he didnt anywhere say yeah man with my new Type R brakes I will stomp on your car, As for it being mature?? What was so unmature about it?? He said its a debate and he's looking for peoples opinions, So I would say that they both of you should be more mature and just answer the question on hand and not throw in a bunch of bs about its a waste of money cause there are plenty of people in this forum alone that have done the teggy brake swaps so are you going to tell everyone that they have wasted their money and that you will win in a road race??

And Havok I would say that it would be a noticable difference but I dont know for sure as I havent done the swap to integra brakes but I am going to be doing a rear disc swap on my car and people have said that it isnt much of a difference between rear disc's and rear drums most people say they did the swap for 2 things better looks and easier to work on. Well Merry X-mas,



[Modified by Vinceg99, 1:40 PM 12/24/2002]

 

Carefull, dont want any smart asses in here.


Anyways, back to topic. Yes, I would say if you have the chance to get the upgrade, do it. I love mine. Maybe its all in the mind, but I love how quickly I can stop with the extra setup. But overall, yeah, its a good upgrade.

 

wow, Havok, that's mature.
Hey, Havok, we'll do this.

I'll go build a ITA CRX Si (D16A, I/h/e, stock size brakes, rear drums, Koni + GC)...

and you bring that uber-jdm sweet Type R crap. We'll go to a road course and see who wins.

Stock si brakes are just fine for road racing...ask http://www.improvedtouring.com. Hell, ask the road racing/autocrossing forum.

no where in this post did i mention type r suspension did I, i was asking if disc brakes in general so once again you need to go and get some hooked on phonics and learn to read word for word!

Oh my, is that a challenge, I think we might have to take you up on that. You must have no idea on performance of anykind, you want to put a d16a(which i believe is a 88 integra motor) with some ground controls against his car. for those who dont know this is a picture of the car he wants to challenge. I'll start taking bets on who everyone thinks will win!


hell, then we can have some 60-0mph test and see who wins those as well.

 

and how about the loser pays for the gas and the track fees of the winner, it'll cost us about 50 bucks in gas to drive down to vegas, but keep in mind, we'll be driving the car itself!!!!!!

 

Hey Havok D16a is a stock SOHC Si motor in Civics and CRX's not in the integra.

 

I don't think stopping distances are going to change much. If they do, it's not because the disks are stronger or anything, but probably some other reasons like different F/R brake bias.

From what I understand, the biggest thing that rotors do for you is improve the brake feel, kind of like stainless steel lines. I don't know what that means, but I imagine much more linear brake force, more feedback, etc.

 

just a thought, but I'm guessing he means B16A

and I think that the integra brakes could be a bit better, cause from the pic, they do look a bit bigger, and it makes sense that the more area there is for the pad to grab, the better your braking would be IMO.


[Modified by Hcivic88, 12:44 PM 12/24/2002]

 

Do you have any idea why this thread appeared? It's cause I and a few others questioned the logic behind adding "type r suspension/brakes" to a CRX. Havok wasn't able to provide any proof of the benefits, outside of his own opinion. More on this later...

People are upgrading to teg brakes cause they think their CRX Si brakes are somehow inefficient. THAT'S the problem.If you knew what the whole discussion was about, you might be able to provide more of an educated response of why this thread was created.

Actually, the braking distance should be unchanged. If it's shorter, it's due to stickier tyres (which Havok doesn't understand).

Larger brake rotors allows better modulation of the brakes and less brake fade. that's it. Cold stopping distances aren't improved at all.

Havok took the comment i made in another thread about Teg brakes over Si brakes not being an upgrade. it IS an upgrade, just not one that is exploited by your average "racer". Nor is it a worthwhile upgrade as the stock Disc/drum setup is very capable of stopping a CRX during a 20min road race...without having problems.

Why is this thread "immature". rather than discussing the issue in the other thread, he thought he would be a smartass and take the comment and try to imply it on something else.

 

[quote]Hey Havok D16a is a stock SOHC Si motor in Civics and CRX's not in the integra.[\quote]

There is an old integra engine that is compatible with 3rg gen civics called a D16a. I think it's a D16A1 where the 4g's get the D16A6 or the ZC D16A8/A9.

Anyway, rear disc upgrade only will:
- drop some weight - drums are heavy.
- gain less rear brake fade because the drum is a closed system compared to disc. Airflow is much better over discs than trying to get new air to pass into drums.
- in heavy rain, drums are knows to FAIL after taking on water. Disc brakes dry off quick right as you tap the brakes.

Rears only do about 25% of braking so it's not THAT dramatic, but helpful to get as much as you can especially if you hit the brakes hard and nosedive the car.

Fronts - larger is better. That's the reason why performance brakes are larger and not smaller (duh).
- less fade due to more cooling area
- better and faster braking from larger pad/rotor contact (more friction = faster stopping).
- try - you WILL like it!

EDIT: Driven is wrong and is just not bright enough to realize it. He needs to do a brake swap and see how UNefficient stock brakes really are in realtime situations. What does COLD braking have to do with it? Usually I drive my car a couple miles atleast. That means I get maybe 1 or 2 cold stops. The rest are all heated! Cold braking DOES improve wether you want to believe it or not. More pad and rotor = more friction. You WILL achieve a higher amount of brake friction FASTER than what you get on smaller brakes. you can't argue with that. That's str8 up engineering factual stuff. If you do argue it then I bet you think you can fly like Peter Pan if you have "faith, trust and pixie dust".


[Modified by 4drEF, 1:10 PM 12/24/2002]

 

proof? ever weighed the 91 Si discs to a '89 si Drums?
you'd be amazed.

Aside from making up a word (Unefficient?)...
I once again ask you why ITA CRX/Civics do so well without any problems with stock disc/drums?

You can't seem to provide any proof outside of your own babble? Can you PLEASE provide PROOF! Prove the stock brakes are inefficie...i mean, "unefficient". Road racing is pretty "real world" when brakes are concerned and they (stock brakes) work fine.

please post back insulting me. just proves your argument lacks substance. also, post back more opinionated nonsense.
You (or Havok) have yet to provide any data or proof. Where's the 17lb ITR wheels with tyres?!?!? Braking distances...? where are they?

 

Just to add in my 2 cents... The 1st gen Integra (85 or 86-89) d16 was dohc while the Civic d16 was sohc. Now back to the real reason for this topic and maybe an end to the endless stupidity some people contribute to this board (I'm sure they don't know who they are cuz they're too stupid). I think there are some questions to be asked before we compare disc to drum, For one is there any weight difference? Are you using or will you be using any type of adjustable proportioning valve? I think what it all really boils down to is opinion. I myself would like to have disc brakes, But I'm a poor basterd (The price of living is too much for me). If you can shed any light on the weight thing let me know, I'm most interested in that...

 

A lot of people tend to get the rear disc setup from a CRX and expect they will automatically have better braking over the drum setup.

Back when I was first building my CRX, I was really conscious about weight...knowing weight is murder on any car. So, I went weighing stuff...the stock rear disc setup on a CRX is close to 7lbs heavier than the drum setup...making it heavier by 14lbs total. The limited amount of braking force exerted by the rears wasn't warranted enough for the minor additional fade resistance over the heavier brakes (and rotating mass). This was purely my opinion and my track experiences proved my initial thoughts correct.

 

Thanks! Have you explored any way of making them lighter? I mean the lcas are the same on both disc and drum right? If so its all in the disc and caliper. Is their anyone who makes a light weight upgrade for the rear? I would mostly want them for ease of maintenance (I always **** up the auto adjusters in the drum and have to do it like three times to get it right).

 

okay well, i'm done arguing cause i know that i'm right in most that i have said. and i know that the d16a6 is si single cam motor but he didn't put a number so i though maybe he was talking about just the "d16a" not followed by a number which is the integra motor, we have one at the shop and that's exactly how the code looks, no number afterwards.
People are upgrading to teg brakes cause they think their CRX Si brakes are somehow inefficient. THAT'S the problem.If you knew what the whole discussion was about, you might be able to provide more of an educated response of why this thread was created.

and what still don't you understand, it's not a crx Si, its a DX hatchback, it didn't come with discs in the rear at all!!!! it came with crappy, heavy, pain in the *** to change pads with drums. so quit saying CRX!

BTW, look at the results of the poll!!!

 

i could pretty much guarentee that his setup now would outbrake his dx drum setup, i'd be willing to put money on it!!

 

well, considering stock with a leaking pass caliper, i was braking from 60mph at 133' for the first stop...third stop jumped to around 155'.

The car NOW stops at 103' for an initial cold stop and 108' at the third stop.

mind you, i'm still running rear drums. But, what do i know, i have no track experience and i'm talking out of my ***. CRX track video

also, since you're in Vegas, I hope you go to the north-south challenge this year for autocross. It's located in Hawthorne (not cali). I would LOVE to beat you at autoX. It'd be a lot of fun!

and i don't have a DX, i have a HF with Si equipment.


[Modified by Driven, 2:17 PM 12/24/2002]

 

Calm down... This is what happens when you ask an opinion oriented question on a forum. I wouldn't so much say there is any argument, More or less a discussion. As far as the whole engine thing, I wasn't saying you didn't know one from the other I was just putting in my otherwise unwanted 2 cents. It was not a FYI remark. Now back to the discussion at hand... We have found that discs weigh more than drums, But discs are easier to fix. Performance wise I really cant say one or the other, But the fact that discs weigh more points to the Satan created pain in the *** drums. If there is any improvement in stopping power I wouldn't think it would be a great one, But if there is in fact a way to shed that extra 7 pounds off the crx si discs it may be worth it. Back to a point, Yes I know we are not talking about the crx discs, But rather Itr discs. Do us a favor Havok if you have the time and patience. Weigh your old drums and compare it with the weight of the itr discs and let us know, I would really appreciate it. I seriously want to get to the bottom of this because I like you also have a dx civic...

 

the best modification for improving braking is good sticky tires.
If your front tires lock while braking, does it matter if you have CRX or integra brakes. Same for the rear.
I did the swap to rear discs more for the fact that discs are easyer to deal with than drums. I did not notice any difference worth mentioning.
Totally different story when I went from Michelin tires to Falken Azenis.

 

and this is completely understandable. A lot of people somehow try to use the "better brake" argument...which doesn't hold much weight (if any).

of course, on the flip side, the stock drums rarely need maintenance. Just minor adjusting every so often. pads rarely get replaced due to their limited use.

 

So I have to go and test a car to satisfy you? doode... look around you. UNefficient® (registered word to me) brakes are drums. Take a good look at race cars... real ones. See any drums? I don't. Think there might be a reason for it? Hmmmmmmm... that's a toughy for you isn't it. Maybe we have to go talk to some F1 guys and have them do some realtime testing so we can just make sure they know what is up. Maybe you can teach them something. I always thought they were lightyears ahead , but maybe you can show them how stupid they are. After you do that please send my your autograph, ok? You would be soooo bad ***.

Compare PAD/SHOE sizes. It's not that hard! If you have a small pad/shoe you get less braking power than a larger one. It's VERY simple... just very simple surface friction. Why do I have to prove what you can look up in a standard engineering book?

Look at the simple safety feature it gives you in rain, hard braking, and also thier general performance day to day. It's a no loose situation. It's been proven. All the car manufactures have even adopted the system. Proof can also be found historically. They USED to have all wheel drums brakes. NO car has that anymore. NONE! Wanna take a guess why? (Hint: Drums suck in comaprison.)

Your cold stop thing is lame... you know as well as anyone that hot testing is where it's at. I could cold stop with brakes made of dirt and baby diapers really well in a cold stop. Well, maybe not, but a cold stop is so unrealistic. They don't happen too often (a couple times and then they are warmed up). So why waste time talking about cold stops.... actually - interesting - RACE cars can't stop worth SHEEEZ in the cold. They are designed to work HOT. The pad (not shoe) is designed for that. You could show how bad *** you are to those stupod F1 guys again... show them how your bad *** OEM brakes outperform their poorly engineered F1 cars at a cold stop. Don't forget the autograph, ok? My future grandkids will get a kick out of that someday!

True - the drum brake is efficient for a STOCK/mild car. I said that already... refer to other thread if necessary. It's also very good for people that don't need to stop quick. If you have the itch for a BETTER and more advanced system you get discs.

I don't need to prove anything to you... you need to go test it for yourself. I have tried it both ways... I know for fact for myself whaich way operates better.

So you are telling to tell me that the rotor of a disc brake system weighs more than a heavy *** drum? I have never weighed them... I know the caliper weighs more on the disc, but that's the price you pay to stop better. That's not rotating though. Get a lighter caliper if you want... there are plenty of them to choose from Wilwood, Endless, Spoon... hey - why not try to sell your idea to Spoon and get some high-performance drum brakes made up? That would be cool! You would be bad *** then boiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!

 

also, since you're in Vegas, I hope you go to the north-south challenge this year for autocross. It's located in Hawthorne (not cali). I would LOVE to beat you at autoX. It'd be a lot of fun!

and i don't have a DX, i have a HF with Si equipment

you sound awful cocky, i think it'd be fun to beat YOU after all the crap you've talked. i'm pretty sure we'd do all right, i know for a fact that we'd gain about 6 car lengths in the straightaways!!!
and i was referring to his DX, you keep calling it a Si crx when it's a standard model DX hatchback!

 

God Himself could be squeezing on your rotors, but you're not going to stop any faster unless you have the tires to back Him up.


[Modified by Lsos, 11:58 PM 12/24/2002]

 

Hmm, I know several ECHC guys and ITA guys who feel they have "race cars" who run rear drums.

Oh, wait, you mean like Formula Fords, Leman cars, and F1 cars? They have big wings on their cars... does it mean you should have big wings on your car? Some of them have a remote (read: external) starter...do you have one?

Prove to me that the rear drum setup on a CRX/Civic is "inefficient" and less likely to stop a vehicle, over a rear disc setup on a CRX/Civic. PROVE to me that a '91 CRX Si with rear discs is going to stop any better than a '89 CRX Si with rear drums. Because, the proof i have shows otherwise. We're not speaking of purpose built race cars... nor are we speaking of Integras, NSX, Porsches... we're talking about a CRX/Civic chassis with rear discs vs rear drums.

Too bad typical street cars only see "cold" stops. Why? cause you never get your brakes hot enough in your basic street-light to street-light stop and go traffic. If you have brake fade with your stock brake system going 45mph down to zero in a non-aggressive manner, there's a HUGE problem. That's cold stopping. That's what your typical street modder does. Your typical street modder is NOT doing 60-0 stops frequently, unless they are purposely trying to create brake fade.

Thanks captain obvious. Are you going to inform the forum that the sun is shining too? "race cars" tend to use higher temp brake pads... cold stops are alright, but it takes usually a full 2 laps to get the pads up to temp... that means frequent, HARD application of the brakes. Not your "christ, i gotta slow for this red light 400 feet in front of me" type stops.

Ah, we're getting somewhere. You finally see the light.

The real question is, who NEEDS better braking...think about that for a second.

Funny, i have data to back my comments... you have nothing. I made sure i went out and tested the items i speak of. You have NO testing to prove what you speak of.

yep. or the scale is lying to me. the whole drum assembly weighs less than the whole disc assembly, stock crx/civic rear discs vs drums. Why? who knows...

Continue with your sarcasm if you wish. it's rather humourous. but try not to avoid the discussion at hand. show me proof rather than make up things off the top of your head.

And try to keep it on topic. don't bring up how x car uses discs... we're in a CRX/Civic forum. remember that.