This is long. Grab a beer!

Of course a lot of you know I do a lot of Hondata and dyno tuning in general. Lately I've been getting a lot of "sticker shock" responses when I give them a price for tuning a system. This seems to stem more from people who are new to the world of true high performance (ie, not bolt ons). What these people don't realize is what is involved in a good tune, what a good tuner will do for you, and how valuable he can be if he is worth his salt.

Let's take Hondata for example. When it comes down to it, I do the install and tuning of the system (including injectors, fuel rail, and regulators) for a low price of 300. If I have to do any sort of soldering, such as for resistor boxes, clips, map sensors, etc, I charge a slight bit more, but well within the realm of reason. This will take about an hour, more if soldering is involved. Before I even attempt the install, I do a once over of the car, checking to see if all engine vitals are in order, such as cooling, ignition, fuel system, turbo system (if present), belt tension (on supercharged cars), and just about everything else that could present a problem on the dyno. I'll also ask you if anything is wrong with the car that a basic once over can't determine. If something is amiss and cannot be easily corrected, then I won't even start on the car in most cases. If something is not quite right, I will usually fix it for free. Once I deem the car acceptable, I will then set the ignition timing and prepare the car to go on the dyno. This whole process can take up to two hours, sometimes more.

Then the car goes onto the dyno, strapped down securely, and properly ventilated (side note: I have nearly $1500 wrapped up in ventilation for the shop and dyno). Then we hook up the wideband O2, and start getting the car tuned, starting first with idle air/fuel. Once deemed acceptable, we'll then begin driving the car through the gears, stopping when needed to change things in the map for better drivability and gas mileage. We may do this several times before once doing a "power run". Once the drivability is acceptable, we'll then prepare to do wide open throttle testing. This is usually the easiest, albeit time consuming, part of the process. A good dyno tuner will make sure that conditions and variables stay constant as much as possible during the process. It is here where any flaws in the car's setup that were under lying previously will be brought to the surface, and if any do surface, I will correct them if at all possible. I will first tune the air/fuel ratio to it's optimum level for safety and power, then make any adjustments with the supporting systems (cam gears, for example). Once those are done, i will make any needed adjustments to the mixture, finally moving on to ignition timing. This is one area where having a dyno is paramount, as you simply cannot effectively do this part of the tuning anywhere but the dyno. I'm a conservative tuner; I go by the philosphy of "aim small, miss small". This means that if you make only a small adjustment and that be a mistake, then it will more than likely not cause damage to the motor. I will continue making adjustments to the entire map as I go, as timing can affect air/fuel. Eventually, I will reach a point where I feel the car has made it to it's best potential - sometimes I exceed expectations, most times I meet them, rarely do I miss them. At this point I will then do a pull under the worst conditions, usually being a hot motor, and cold charge. If the curve remains acceptable, with no signs of detonation, hesitation, or massive losses in power, then I feel at that point the car is safe to leave my hands. If not, I will return to tuning to correct the problem. If it is deemed acceptable, then I will remove the car from the dyno, button the car up, again check all affected systems, and take the car for a test drive for drivability. Lastly, I will make any needed adjustments, completely button up the car, and then discuss future options you may want to consider to improve your car's performance and/or reliability. Then, I will return the car to your possession. This part of the process can, and often does, take 4-6 hours, sometimes more. In some cases, I may request you bring the car back to me, so I may finish things or if a part is needed. Usually this also is at no additional charge.

As you can see, I'm very thorough. I do not skip steps, or make sacrifices or compromises: I take my time, and do it right. If you've been keeping track, this entire process, if done correctly and methodically, takes about 6-8 hours, with 6 being the average.

Now, most specialty shops, at least in my area, charge in the area of 65-75 dollars per hour for labor, without dyno time. My average Hondata job takes 6 hours, and I charge 300, meaning you're only paying 50 per hour on average, thats about what you would pay for a regular mechanic to wrench on your car. Now, let's say that you brought your car to me, and wanted to just pay hourly for the dyno, which my charge is 125/hour with wideband O2 usage. You can see it would not take long at all to approach the 300 dollar charge to have everything done.

A good tuner is your best friend. He's the guy you call 3 times a week for advice during your buildup, what part you should buy, what would work well as a combination, what to watch out for, and lots more. He can potentially save you money, by steering you from buying parts that may not work well together, thus saving you the time, money, and effort of changing them out. Why? Because an experienced tuner has worked with dozens of setups, parts, and combinations, he'll know what works, how it works, and why some things may be advantageous for you to use or stay away from. When it comes down to it, hands on experience is priceless.

I wrote this at the urging of a couple of my customers, who at first were a bit skeptical and sticker shocked themselves. Of course, once they saw what was actually involved, the price did not seem so bad, and the end result seemed like a real value. I am a real person - I'm not some disconnected guy who sits on a dyno all day and racks up the money. I work hard to make a living, just like you do, and I realize that it's difficult to spend money on something that you can't hold in your hand, admire, and shine up at the car show. This is why I wrote this little blurb, over the past few days, to give you some insight on what you are getting, or perhaps should be getting, when you take your car to have it tuned.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? (I know you will

 

great post

 

 

I guess there are a lot of cheap people out there, but they sure as hell shouldnt enter the honda tuning world(more than i/h/e).

I think your prices sound very great and your knowledge and dyno posts from the board show that you know your ****. There are also dudes who got their car tuned by you and stated what a good job you did. That is why I will be coming to you as soon as I finish buying my setup.

I will put the motor in the car on Friday and break it in. As soon as I get a downpipe, injectors, and a b.o.v., me and the GA boys will come down to St. Pete and hopefully massage my 60-1 to some serious horsepower numbers. Hell, if my car leaves with 400whp, I'll pay you anything...

Good post. Shows you have good character and are a good businessman who will go out of his way to please his customers. And as a future customer, I just want to let you know that you seem very professional and I look forward to coming down and meeting you and watching the magician at work.

 

Good tuners are a rarity. Glad to have you around John!

 

I'm tired as ****, but glad i took the time to read this. Very well said John. A good tuner is worth his weight in gold It's also good to have a tuner such as yourself who understands where his customers are coming from and will take the time to not only get good power out of a car, but also show them what all has been done and what is involved so that the customer may come out of it with a better understanding of how his car is running and what to correct or look for if something should go wrong in the future.

 

Clif notes?

 

great price, thorough and knowledgeable service.

 

well said john...

thats why i refer all my local customers to you

 

need you here in cali..

 

awesome post! I think 300 is pretty cheap for all of what you're doing. I'd have sticker shock of the other kind. If I lived in Florida, I'd be going to your shop

 

Very good post, I learned a lot from it Are you coming up to Washington anytime soon?

 

that is a good post, and a good deal to boot..

I would even consider the drive to Fl for that price.. I may even save on the tuning/labor what I spend in gas

 

John when I am ready you are the man I am coming to see. If is it means I drive from OH to FL.


I am a firm believer you pay what you get for..

 

whos glad he lives only an hour or two from this guy.

 

damn.. very well said. That is how every tunner should be. As for spending $300 to get your motor fully tunned... to me that's nothing. I live in Minnesota and i undestand that cost of living is much higer up here than it is in Florida. So when i saw you state that it was "ONLY $300" that completely blew my mind. payne tech in the midwest charges wayyyyy more. I wish that i could have you move up here.

I personally belive what you say in your post is true. That's how i feel and that's the only way i would do it if i was you. For that i truely admire your wholesome genuine values as a buisness owner and a indivisual.

***OT: my brother just bought 5 aecers(sp) in Florida. He told me the citiy but i can't remember the name... he said it's about 2hours form Disney world!
The first thing that came to my mind was "hondata tunning = John/vaportrail= Secret Services.
It's sad to see that he's moving in January but i was also happy because know i have a really good reason to tell my wife that i need to visit by bro in Florida. ......
.... . ..... . ... you are in Florida right? haha j/k

for what you have to offer i would openly & willingly give you $1,000 to do the tunning and TECH support by phone & internet. I also admir Jeff @ Importbuilders too. It's very hard to find a good tunner who has a good reputation and EXPERIANCE. Experiance is worth more than gold it self in what ever industry you are in. That's my downfall. All i do it read, read, read, research, study and read some more about honda cars, i seriousely lack expericance of which I wish I had.

to John a great guy and to a member who adds value, experiance, services and knowledge to Honda-Tech.

 

I want to thank you, Taylor, Bill for helping me with my first swap. I realize this was almost a year ago but good customer service is a very rare find. Not to mention the killer deal I got on shop rental and free help. It was like hanging out with friends, wrenching on cars, listening to music, but I had never met any of these guys before. They make you feel right at home.

I think the flat rate you offer for hondata is a great deal. As soon as my closing goes through on the house, I'll be back.

 

very nicely put!

 

Can't wait for the road trip. Even if it means trailering the car for hours and hours.

 

do you charge different rates for turbo and na cars?

 

John doesn't wake up until later today but I beleive he charges the same on both na and fi. Of course that might slighy vary if you are planning on using race gas when tuning. That's the most I know, since I never get to read the board with prices all the time Im there..


Wake up John !

 

well said vaportrail ...

I usually see the same things happening, although I dont have a personal dyno I use DRT's but most of the time I do the street tuning in the boonies wiht my laptop and all kinds of jimmy rigged things like wideband, desktop dyno and a laptop datalogger ... tune anything from VAFC to dfi, speedpro, etc. and until 6 hrs later then and only then the customer realizes what it took to get the job done... sometimes they feel sorry for me a buy me a Wendy's spicy chicken sandwich and chili, other times "thanks so much greg"

bottom line that I have noticed is you do what people want and if they see that you bent over backwards for them they come back and they bring their buddies to get their cars done also ... of course now you're succeptable to peer fights cause if his buddies car comes out faster than the original friend, man they start fighting ... and I get dirty looks LOL

very good article, keep up with the good professionalism at your shop, patience and time you'll get many customers who come back time and time again with friends and sooner or later "word spreads"

btw, who is this ? is it john gadd ?

Greg

 

Greg, you and those Spicey Chicken sandwiches from Wendy's. And John great write up, alot is involved in tuning, my local tuner DOES not charge enough for what he does. Plus good tuning is INVALUABLE!

 

I didn't think your post was very long.

And, $300 for all that work is a bargain.

 

So let me get this correct, you charge only 300 bucks to install hondata and tune it on the dyno? That is such an incredible price. Where are you located?