1997 Civic HX 5MT stock D16Y5 310k miles

I am doing the timing belt on this car for the first time since I purchased the car used at 140k miles some 10 years ago.
I am also putting on a new oil pan gasket and figured I would do the oil pump and put in new seals (O ring and crank seal) - this is all with the engine still in the car.

Questions:
1) When I take off the oil pump, I wanted to clean it up with carb/brake cleaner as best as I can and re-install it. My question is, should I put assembly lube on everything I clean so it won't start up without lube ?
I have the FSM and understand the instructions to measure all the clearances etc. I haven't had oil pressure problems so I was just hoping to disassemble, clean and reassemble.

2) Right before the pandemic I was able to get some OEM parts for the oil pump for cheap, namely the spring/relief valve and washer. Is there any quirk to replacing these that I should know before I replace them ? Would it be "safer" for me to let the old ones be ?

I have another driver while I do this so I can take my time. Currently I have everything off except for the timing belt itself (and therefore NOT the pump yet either). I took a lot of time cleaning up the oil pan AND its block mating surface last weekend. Cleaning up the flywheel-to-engine side of the block was a real PITA if I do say so. After brushing with all kinds of toxic solvents I did get it nice and clean. Will do the same for the oil pump.

Any info would be appreciated.

 

FSM probably says something about it, but I would just give all the internal parts of the pump a liberal coat of fresh oil before you close it up. That's the state it's in every time you start then engine normally

relief spring could just be reused if it's still intact. there's nothing special about reinstall other than clean, dry threads on the plug and loctite.

Berryman Chem-dip is my go-to for cleaning up parts for a rebuild.

 

Thanks for the info. You mention loctite - the FSM mentions thread seal on the backing plate screws only. Is that right ?

 

I'll have to dig up my 96-00 fsm. I know on the 92-95 series, you have honda bond that you have to do on a clean surface for the oil pump.

It's better, to leave the oil pump alone unless you are planning on tearing the whole bottom end of the engine apart for a rebuild, but you don't do that with the engine in the car. Just do your timing belt, water pump and tensioner. Tune up of wires, plugs, rotor and distributor cap and change your fuel filter, air filter and make sure all timing is correct and the car should run pretty good. The only other thing you may update to help things is the 5 wire O2 sensor. Doing your main seals is also doable but the rear main means you have to drop the transmission.

 

Since I have the oil pan off already, and the car has 310k stock miles on it, you don't think it worthwhile to pull the oil pump to put a new o-ring and crank seal on while I have the oil pan and timing belt off ? I know I can do the crank seal without pulling the pump, but I just figured I would do it while I have the access. Your advice does give me pause as I too usually don't pull things that don't seem to have problems.

 

You could pull it and then measure the pump via FSM procedure then replace the o-ring, clean all surfaces and put the honda bond on. I'm just of mind, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm not sure how easy it will be to re and re it with the motor in the car. If I remember, I will pull the pages for you and let you decide if it's something you wish to tackle.

 

I have the pages- I have the FSM. I already have the oil pan off (and both surfaces cleaned) and the timing belt off. I cleaned the oil pan up and it's mating surface and put it back on (without the seal and sealant) just to cover the bottom half of the engine so stuff won't get in it while I wait until the weekend to get a chance to work on it again. I figure since I can wait, I can actually pull the oil pump, clean it and reinstall it with the Hondabond and new seal/o-ring, then reinstall the oil pan as it should be with a new seal and sealant than actually wait a day for it to properly seal.

One of my concerns is that to take off the oil pump, I will have to knock it a little with a rubber mallet to loosen it from the block and that in doing so I knock the crank from TDC a bit. How "stuck on" is the oil pump usually ?

I just want to do it "while I am in there" so to speak.

 

in my opinion. Leave the oil pump alone.Stinky has over 400k miles on the stock oil pump (1995 d15b7) Here is how to see if you have good oil pressure. Does it knock when it idles If no, then you have good oil pressure, if yes, then you have bad oil pressure

 

I am pretty well tempted to follow your advice and not mess with the oil pump.

I thought I would have gotten to spend all weekend on this last weekend, which never happened.
There are two more issues, in my head, that I thought about this past week as I haven't touched the car for three weeks that I would appreciate your input on.
1) The car has been sitting for three weeks, with the oil drained (I did this to remove the oil pan). When I finally do start things up, will I screw up the engine as the internal parts will be poorly lubricated ?
2) Related to 1), in my stupidity when I thought I should do the timing belt "while I am at it re-doing the oil pan", I rotated the crank probably 1-1.5 revolutions to get it at TDC AFTER I drained the oil (but did not refill it yet). Again, it was by hand 1-1.5 revolutions but did I probably damage the engine rotating it without oil being sucked in ?

I feel stupid on doing #2. Any info is appreciated.

 

me? I would not worry too much about it. put it together and start it.. Stinky had the oil pan off for 2 weeks waiting for parts (didnt turn the crank though) as long as you didnt take off any connecting rod end caps or main bearing caps there will be oil in the journals. mayby not enough for full oil pressure, but enough to start the engine.. Do it, you will be fine, Remember, when an engine is built, there is NO oil in the journals, Just a fine coat of oil on the bearings. and by a fine coat, aI mean they dip the bearings in a pot of oil and install. You will be ok

 

Thanks, I appreciate the re-assurance. I have done a lot of work on my car but am not a pro-mechanic, just someone who likes to do their own work with an FSM in hand (which doesn't always give enough to understand what is going on).

I've tackled a good bit for an amateur, but never deep engine work or even a timing belt. I've changed the clutch but didn't re-build the tranny. Bent my own brake lines and put them in from front to rear the "original" way (ie took out suspension and subfame... was a hell of a job and took me months). But never a timing belt or deep engine work. All with the FSM though.

 

The bearings will hold a light coat of oil. Spinning the crank a little with the oil pan off won't do anything. Continually cranking it may over time especially at speed. A little hand cranking to look at everything won't be a problem.

When rebuilding an engine you coat the bearings with oil or assembly lube and spin it multiple times. If you tend to use Lucas oil stabilizer you have even more wiggle room as more oil/stabilizer sticks to the bearings. Really though, a little movement isn't a problem.

To give you an idea of how tough Honda motors are or were, some guys took an older Honda engine, drained all the oil and started it up and ran it at high rpm for over 2 minutes before it seized. It takes a lot to burn Honda bearings.

 

1997 Civic HX stock MT and D16Y5, 310k miles



Thanks all for your input thus far, much appreciated.



I got some time to work on the car yesterday, nowhere near done. Two new issues/questions I have now as a result. Again any input is appreciated.



A.) I have the cam and crank aligned at tdc; I removed the timing belt tensioner and timing belt.

I removed the cam gear and replaced the cam seal. The fsm says to put oil on the fastener and torque to 27 ft-lbs.

When I tried to re-install the cam gear, I wasn’t able to get to the torque spec before the I got the cam turning slightly with my wrenching. I immediately stopped and put the cam back at TDC.



My questions regarding this are:

1) I put oil on both the threads and washer surface of the Cam gear fastener. Should I NOT have put oil on the washer flat surfaces ?

2) How do I get the fastener to torque spec without spinning the cam ? Do I have to wait until installing the timing belt when everything is tensioned and then finally getting it to spec ?





B.) Forgive me, I was tempted to ignore all the good advice now about leaving the oil pump alone. If you say “I told you so...” I deserve it. But I can’t change the past now haha.

I gave in and wanted to just go ahead with the oil pump removal so I could replace that inner o-ring. With the timing gear, oil pan, oil pickup screen and oil pump to block fasteners removed, I tried to then pull off the pump to no avail. I hit the pump a few time with a rubber mallet (for backpacking tent stake driving) and nothing happened.

Here are my questions:

1) How do I remove the pump ? Do I have to remove the AC compressor mount bracket to be able to remove the pump ?

2) Is the hondabond that is sealing the pump to the block really that strong such that it is really well stuck on ?

3) The ism isn’t clear about removing the oil pump as to whether or not it is necessary to have the engine block removed and turned upside down to work on it or if it can be done with the engine on the car ?

All the figures drawn on the oil pump have the engine block upside down with every accessory bracket removed. However there are worded instructions that describe “remove belts, oil pan, timing belt then remove the oil pump” as though it isn’t necessary to remove the engine to work on the oil pump.

4) If I give ip on removing the pump to replace the inner o-ring, what are the chances that my removal attempts (rubber mallet, some pulling) will leave a now broken seal ?

I can’t see that I’ve moved the pump at all. If I give up on full removal I will definitely replace the outer crank seal.



Thanks again for all the help.

 

Maybe I needed some rest over the weekend. Removed the pump without removing the AC bracket easy peasy. Put a small pry bar against the sump attachment area of the pump and pushed slightly against the block and it easily came out.

 

Question : Why does the Factory Service Manual give instructions to open and check the specs on the oil pump rotors, and replace the rotor or body if needed, while the honda official parts diagrams show nothing in terms of selling the rotors, body or backing plate screws as seperate items ?

 

I suspect if they are worn beyond spec ( haven't seen one to date ), they will sell a whole new oil pump, not just the housing or rotors etc.