Hello, I currently have the B20B 9.6:1 compression and I want to go turbo. Due to this I was considering switching to a GSR or ITR first instead of bothering trying to build the B20.
My question is about the swap...
From what I can tell I believe a long block from HMO.com is all I need. I have a nice rebuilt YS1 cable trans with carbon syncros and LSD so I would like to just reuse that. It should bolt up just fine is that correct?
I also believe the axles used from the current B20 swap should work on the B18C as well. Can you please confirm this?
The long block for the GSR comes with a P72 ECU which I believe is ODB1? I am coverted to OBD1 now with the B20 so I think this may be easier than the ITR which would have a p73 and would be OBD2. Do you think its worth it to stay OBD1 and get the GSR? For the long blocks the GSR and ITR actually aren't far apart in price, $2,400 vs $2,800. So I would like to get the ITR but im not sure if its worth it. I appreciate any opinions you can provide!
Also any other parts for the swap from B20 to B18c I might need? Since its already fully swapped with the B20 I don't believe I would need very much to change it.

 

What is your power goal?

I would say the ITR over the GSR is not worth it if going turbo. But wondering whether a swap is needed in the first place.

 

I would really like to get into the 350whp range or a little better. From what I have researched anything over 250whp on a stock B20 is just a waiting game until it blows up. I did some research and it seemed like if you were going to build the engine just go with the GSR because it won't take much to surpass the ITR. I wouldn't be building the engine right away so I was hoping to get it assembled and tuned at maybe 275-300whp for a season. Then ideally tear it apart over winter, build what is needed and retune for more boost. What do you think about this goal?

 

 

Sounds very reasonable, and I would agree that the GSR is your best option.

However since you will need new internals to reach your ultimate goal, you might be better off looking around for a bare block instead and just doing the build now. Rather than paying the premium for a fully assembled long block from HMO, only to tear it down and rebuild it later. You could potentially piece together an entire engine that is ready to handle 400+whp for not much more than what the stock engine assembly would cost.

 

Ok cool I appreciate the insight! I have been looking into waiting to buy a built block and head as well and agree ideally that would be the way to go. I think for roughly $5k or a little lower I would have a nasty engine capable of much better than 350whp. I just need to decide when I want to build. I would be very happy with 300ish whp for now if the stock engine could handle it for a season or two maybe. That would be cheaper for now but I do agree progressive building isn't ideal.
Do you have any clarification for the swap questions? I'm sure the trans will work fine, but i'm not totally sure on the axels. Or if there's anything else i'm missing but I l believe it should be fairly straight forward to swap since I already have b series mounts and other things like that.

 

For the GSR swap, everything should work. Tranny, axles, shift linkage, all should be plug and play.

The P72 ecu's come in both OBD1 and OBD2 I believe. It depends on the model year. You will want a pre-95 ecu that is OBD1 and should plug right in.

 

Ok thank you again I appreciate the help! Super happy to confirm the axles and everything else should work like I hoped! I am actually running a PR4-A11 OBD1 ECU on the B20. So I could probably just get that re-tuned for the B18c and might not need a new ECU at all.

 

Might as well just get Hondata now and get that out of the way. Then load whichever map you needs.

 

I've been thinking more about waiting to build the GSR before swapping as that would be a better option. However it will take me a while to assemble all that, which is ok. I am wondering in the mean time if it would be fun to try and do a low level of boost on the B20 for the rest of this year. Do you agree 250whp is too high for the stock B20? It is the 9.6:1 compression. I know tuning is the biggest variable, but assuming the tune is correct is 250whp too high? Would 200 or so be a better idea? I know the engine makes 150hp stock so I'm assuming it puts down roughly 125 to the wheels. Would another 75whp make a big difference? I just really want to continue working on the car this season but the full B18 build is going to take a while. If I got a decent turbo kit I think most of it would swap to the B18 later, except maybe a new exhaust manifold for the VTEC head. I appreciate any opinions in this idea!

 

Boosting the B20 while you build the GSR is a swell idea. The turbo kit you build should bolt up when you swap in the B18. 200 to 250whp should be perfectly fine on the stock B20 with a good tune.

 

Ok I may try for that goal for this season then. I feel like 200whp on the B20 would still be very fun for now. The fastest car I've owned was a WRX with 300whp and im thinking the Civic would still be considerably faster than that due to the weight difference. I think the WRX was around 3400 and the Civic is only 2400! I have also been reading a ton of your thread on here with the CRX B18! Your build is clearly very similar to what I would like to get to eventually.

 

Now that I might boost the b20 first I am wondering about the Non-vetch ECU I am currently using. I agree I want to get Hondata for the B18c later on, but I don't want to spend the money on a hondata now and have to move it to an new Vtech ECU later.
My current PR4 ECU has a Xenocron chip. I did some research but still looking to confirm, can this chip be reburned with a new tune? I was hoping to use my current ECU on the b20 and not have to invest in the Hondata as this time. Will this work for me? Do I just need a local tuner that has the ability to reburn chips or is this not possible?
Or would something like this AEM EMS be better? http://realstreetperformance.com/Sho...B16A-B20B.html
If I got this EMS maybe it would work for both applications?

 

If you're willing to spend $1,400 on an AEM EMS, why not save some cash, buy a P28 and have the s300 put in it, then have it tuned with VTEC turned off for now? Then when you swap to a B18C, you can just re-tune with VTEC on. Or put the s300 in your PR4, then transfer it over to a P28 (or other VTEC capable OBD1 ECU) when you get the B18C. You'd only be out the cost of having the 2nd ECU socketed.

 

I wasn't thinking about the P28 with VTEC turned off. I guess the Hondata controls that function so it can be turned off is that how its disabled?

 

Yes. I haven't had a Hondata since the s200, but if I recall correctly, there is either a setting to turn on or off, or you set the engagement to an unobtainable RPM, or you copy your non-VTEC maps over to the the VTEC maps...something, somehow you can disable VTEC.

 

You just uncheck the box that says "VTEC enabled"

 

Ok great thanks for the tips about turning VTEC off! I obviously didn't want to spend $1,400 on the AEM EMS but was trying to decide how much to pay for the ease of not moving the Hondata to a new ECU later.

 

 

Another option you might consider is a LS/Vtec boost build. Find a LS block (b18a or b18b) and build it how you want with forged internals then get a head of your preference and a good ls/vtec conversion kit like blackworks racing and some arp head studs and you're set. I've built a couple of these and on a modest 15lbs of boost reached ~480whp on a street tune. Would be reliable if done right and you wouldn't be spending money on a higher compression block that you're probably going to rip the rods and pistons out of anyway and replace with forged.

 

This is a really good option for sure. I have been trying to increase my Honda knowledge a lot over the past few months. I have been seeing a lot of used B16 or GSR heads for sale around my city and have been considering doing a B20V with the engine block i already have. I just get worried about the used heads... I don't know exactly what to look for to ensure it is working properly and not significantly damaged in some way. But I am researching more to get a good sense of what it should be like. A used head would be a super cheap start. I think even the B20V with no turbo would be a lot of fun for a while!

 

I've always preferred a b18 block over the b20's for boost. I've pushed 15lbs on a b20 block before and it held but not for long, those blocks have weak cylinder walls and don't allow much leeway for error or you crack the cylinder walls. My personal opinion would be to leave the b20 in there to drive and build a b18 and head then swap when you're ready to boost.

 

Yep i've read a lot about boosting the B20 and the sleeves definitely are a concern. I have a really good tuner near by, Brent from PFI. So im confident his tune would be solid but i agree its still a gamble. This is exactly why im taking my time to fully research and learn as much as possible first. Sooo many times i've almost started to buy parts but the staged builds are not ideal. I know its best to figure it all out first and buy once!

 

Yeah, Brent seems to be a great tuner. One of the b20's I built the guy ended up wanting more so he just turned up the boost once at the track and cracked all 3 spots where cylinder walls meet. We ended up going b18b block which meant all new pistons cause of the bore difference, wasn't a cheap trip to the track. But the b18 lasted him almost a year before he got it tuned by another local tuner on 20 lbs and blew it up 2 months later. I think the other tuner had something messed up, dyno'd on 15lbs @ 480whp on my street tune and on 20lbs @ 510 on his dyno tune. Kinda weird he only gained ~30 horse on an extra 5psi. But yeah, from my experience, b18 block will suit you better. And if you really want a 2.0, get a b18 and sleeve it to a 2.0. Not many companies make sleeves for the b20 last I looked.