So, I finally bought a 2nd car to use as a track car/back up daily driver and im excited for the 2018 season to finally try an HPDE track day

I know this isnt a poor mans sport but I was wondering how you guys who do HPDE and other track day events feel about the amount of seat time you get...

I used to ride motocross and would go to open track days ($30-40) would let you ride all day or in some cases they would give us 20-30 minute time slots to ride and break up the groups into classes. Riding a motorcycle on a track is pretty demanding physcially and as long as I was tired at the end of the day I feel like I got my moneys worth.

Do you feel that 3, 20 minute sessions is enough? Is it feasible to run all day or do these events limit it for insurance reasons?

 

I always say "If I can get at least 3 runs in" before something breaks etc...Then, I get my money's worth ($200). I have never left disappointed. Though not as demanding as a motorcycle, it is mentally/physically demanding and on some runs I'm looking for the checkered flag a few laps before it gets thrown.

 

Where are you located and what HPDE groups are you looking at?

I typically get 4-7 sessions a day depending on the group I run with. They all split everyone up into run groups based on skill level. (It's not just about speed, more about awareness, control and predictability) Aside from a lunch break the track stays hot the whole day between the run groups.

The only group I've seen do only 3 sessions locally are the SCCA track nights. While those are a good way to get people interested in driving on track, I don't think they are ideal beginner. Unlike other HPDE groups, they don't have instructors for novices.

 

I'm in the same boat as S2k@9K. If I can get 3 runs in a day, then I'm happy. If you are looking for more seat time, there is a group called 10/10ths that does 3 run groups opposed to the usual 4, and 30 minutes sessions. Its usually a little more expensive than going to an HPDE with say, a Porsche or BMW club, but I have never had a bad experience with them.

 

I am located in NJ so I will be looking at the NE events and maybe some Midatlantic ones. Maybe a few southern ones once a or twice a year depending on the budget

 

Like, exactly this.

As far as money, the way I see it I could spend $200 on a mod that would make me maybe .5 seconds quicker, or I could spend $200 on a track day and probably shave 1 second off my pb. This probably doesn't work for those who are already getting every second out of their car. I'm pretty far from that.

 

Having worked for and organized track days for a few groups in the area, I can say that there are a lot of good reasons for splitting the day into run groups instead of doing one long open track session.

The obvious reasons are to manage traffic and to give more participants time on track. It's very difficult to find a big group of people who are similarly skilled and aware enough that they can manage to run a single track session without causing traffic and safety issues. Even if you did, there is a limit to the number of cars that you can put on track just because of the inherent speed differentials between the cars. We would cap DE run groups at 22 entries at NJMP Lightning and 27 entries on Thunderbolt just to ensure that people could run at their own pace without fear of getting run over or held up.

The less obvious reasons include wear and tear on the driver and car. Like S2k@9k said, track time is physically and mentally demanding. I remember finishing my few first DE days covered in sweat, left leg and core hurting from supporting my body with my brain was going in and out of a fog from the stresses of driving a car mildly close to the limit on a racetrack. And that was after four 30-minute sessions spread across a 10 hour day. I can only imagine what would happen if I had attempted 2 hours straight.

Your body does adjust relatively quickly to these stresses, which is the good news. The bad news is that you start going faster as a result, and you start putting a lot more wear on the car in less time. Believe it or not, there are very few production-based cars out there that can be driven for hours at a time without overheating the motor, boiling the brakes, or without causing some other mystery failure that only crops up when everything is being stressed to the limit. It takes a fair number of careful modifications to get most cars to be able to do long sessions, and depending on your car that can cost a bit of money. It's easier for both car and driver to run in more manageable sessions than try to do an enduro every time you get on track.

The other big reason - cost of entry fees. Tracks in the Northeast have very high rental fees due to the long winters here. It costs a track day organization anywhere between $7k and $22k per day to rent the major tracks in this region. When you have to pay for that, workers, hospitality, insurance, travel and logistics, you rack up a pretty sizeable bill. And of course, the only way to pay that bill is to collect entry fees. If you can do four run groups and give each one of them four sessions, you could accommodate 80 drivers for $275 and give them a relatively traffic free day. If you were to do an open track day, you could probably only accommodate 40 people or so (assuming that they don't decide to get on track at the same time) and have to charge a relatively steep $550.

That said, my personal recommendation for your first track day is to not worry about the format of the day and look for quality instructors and a well-organized sanctioning body. BMWCCA's entry fees are on the high side but they have excellent instructors and are very good about keeping their events on a tight schedule. The PCA regions in the NJ-DE area also have good instructors and have a relaxed atmosphere that puts people at ease. You'll get plenty of good quality track time at organizations like these, and that's the most important thing right now.

 

I guess that's one thing I sort of didn't think about, as most HPDE cars are street cars which are modded a bit to become track worthy where as a motocross or sport bike is pretty much race ready (relatively speaking) out of the box. . You can take a stock cbr600rr and do some basic mods to it and you're good to go.

My car is a bone stock 2001 Integra GSR...should I throw an oil cooler on it before I hit the the track? I am going to upgrade the pads and brake fluid but I am not sure if I should throw on a koni/GC setup or just try a few with the stock setup.

 

I would actually spend your time and money on making sure the car is running as well as it can in lieu of upgrading it. Even though B series motors have a reputation for running high oil temperatures, an oil cooler is something that can wait until you are a few weekends in.

Good fresh oil, new Honda MTF in your transmission, new spark plugs and wires, new brake rotors with mildly track-capable pads, freshly bled brake system with Motul RBF600 or Brembo LCF, clean grounds for your electrical system and a once over to check for slop in your tie rods, ball joints, and suspension bushings would be worth doing. If you have a lot of miles on the stock dampers, I would consider replacing them. But if not I would leave them too. It's easier to not have to worry about weird behaviors caused by ride height and damper settings while trying to learn how to drive in a totally new environment.

 

It all depends on the organization that organizes the event. I have personally been involved for over 10 years in organizing track days and different events. From both ends of the spectrum (as part of an organizing body and as a customer), I have found that the amount of seat time offered by each organization is different.

I have been at events where the drivers meeting took up the entire morning, which is a waste of the use of the rented space in my opinion. I am happy that the people I run with are more into offerring training while the driver is actually driving, and as a customer, I usually try to go to events from organizers who think the same way. This adds to the amounts of instructors required (less time in a classroom, so there are many required to ride shotgun), but it is an overall better approach for drivers.

On the topic of run groups... I think they are necessary and important for everyone's safety. It is a great way to limit passing zones (or eliminate even passing at all) for the more novice bunch of people.

 

Yes im going to be refreshing things first before I do any real mods. The car has close to 200K miles on it however...think I should go w/ the koni setup?

 

As for seat time, I agree with what boxedfox said. The time you get in beginner groups is going to be more than enough due to driver fatigue. I had been instructing for a few years and my students were usually exhausted by the end of the weekend... with a huge smile on their face and ready to do it again! For the most consistent quality of instruction, I would go with BMWCCA or PCA.

As for mods, I think you are on the right track with general maintenance items first. Unless your suspension is shot, I wouldn't worry about it just yet. Spend the money on track weekends, get comfortable driving on track, then you can start with suspension. Hell, when I started I picked up an E30 off of craigslist for $800, did minimal maintenance and hit the track... with that being said, don't do what I did

 

Sounds like you got some good stories out of it though. : )

 

Do you know how recently the dampers were replaced? If you have stock or stock-replacement dampers and they have more than 30k street miles on them, you'll probably want to change them. KYB Excel-G's are cheap if you have access to spring compressors.

Koni yellows are ok too, but I'm not sure if they're worth the money for you yet. I went into my first track day with a brand new set of coilovers and ended up changing the spring rates after 4 weekends, changing them again 8 weekends later, then getting the dampers revalved shortly after. In retrospect if I had done my first few events on stock replacement dampers and stock springs, I could have gone right to the spring rates and dampers I needed without having to spend the time and money making adjustments.

 

No idea..the car was driven by an old lady and it's in really good condition (other than some quirks like a blown radio fuse, windshield wiper motor acting funky, etc) but its still high miles. I suppose Ill weigh my options soon enough and see what needs to be done.

 

definitely take a look at nasa northeast. great group and great events, and we go to NJMP multiple times per year.

I guess i may be biased since northeast is my home region and i race honda challenge in an integra. H2 class in our region is basically spec integra at this point lol. If you need any help or parts feel free to reach out, theres a couple o fthe northeast guys floating around here.

 

thanks! well for now if you have a hook up on a machinest/garage in NJ that can press these bushings in for me that'd be awesome.


you wouldnt happen to have any left over stock struts with < 30K on them, would you? if you do and want to get rid of them, PM me with a price

 

couple guys i race with are big supporters of cambertoe performance. I dont have any stock struts, but i have a set of koni yellows converted to "race" spec with ground control sleeves.

 

thanks, maybe in a few months ill reach out and see if you still have them but I think oem replacements will have to do for now (kyb agx or whatever)

 

For engine motor oil, are you running a full synthetic oil? I'm thinking that a full synthetic will hold up better on the track at high temp. Since you're just starting out running track days, I suggest having an instructor be a passenger in your car for a while. When I started tracking, initially it was with the Audi Club, and then with Nasa in Norcal, and a few other private organizations. In Nasa, HPDE-1 students have an instructor ride along and give feedback/suggestions during and after the sessions. If the instructors feel that you've advanced far enough, then they sign you off to HPDE-2 where you run without any instructor in the same run group as the HPDE-1 students. In Norcal, HPDE-3 get a separate group with more passing allowed, and HPDE-4 is full open passing.

My point is to have at least a few instructors ride along with you as they may detect something that you're not doing well/correctly, and that you may get away with in the lower level group, but not as you go faster, so don't be in a huge rush to not have an instructor as they may catch something or have suggestions that will help you later. In Norcal, some of the instructors also drove their own cars in HPDE-4, and they allowed students to ride along as passengers to gain a feel for the track at higher speeds, but not sure about Nasa in the NE. - Jim

 

i havent changed it yet, but i think i will be running synthetic

i dont think you can run HPDE1 without an instructor or evidence you've been on a track before. i have no problem going this route and my goal is to get to HPDE4 and do that for awhile. one day when the funds allow for it ill get into racing.

Hate to bring politics/economics into this sort of thread but we all know things are pretty tough out there and will be for the foreseeable future, IMO..so i think HPDE is the best thing for me at the moment regarding the economics of this sort of thing. I dont think Trumps corporate tax plan is going to bring back jobs or give incentives to mega corps to invest CAPEX into hiring people and whatnot. Ive worked at a few F500 companies and every manger is under the jackboot of wall street to cut costs/corners.

 

NASA northeast is an awesome group to run with. I started with another group that was terrible, always losing track time for incidents and some very shoddy driving and people being signed off by "instructors" way too fast. NASA is a family, you will always have an instructor when you need and you will meet great people...and even see some great racing on the majority of weekends. I HIGHLY recommend it.

 

Absolutely! I have run with Northeast before as well as other NASA regions and have always been happy. I run mostly with Southeast and it is a great time. They always do their best to make sure that the DE groups get all of the track time... especially when us racers mess up the track.

Also, you guys mentioned oil... there is a lot of debate on the subject, so I will just say that I use Valvoline VR1. It comes in conventional and synthetic. In my B18, I always used conventional.

 

What I was saying was that in Norcal, HPDE-1 and HPDE-2 run during the same track sessions, but HPDE-2 driver's have been signed off by their instructor so don't have an instructor riding along with them. If you run with Nasa and haven't run any track days, then you would be signing up for HPDE-1 and have an instructor. My main point was to not be in a huge rush to get signed off, as the instructors may detect something you're not doing well that may be more important as you go faster (like not looking ahead far enough, not shifting or using the gas or brakes smoothly enough, doing something that is upsetting the car, not being aware of flag stations and other drivers, being 'unpredictable', etc...). - Jim

 

gotcha, yeah i wont be rushing. ive even had people on other forums who were pro level motorycle road racing guys tell me they learned alot from an instructor.