Hello all! I have a quick question.. I have a '97 Ek, manual s40 trans. My passenger axle needed replacing so I went and bought a refurbished Auto Zone axle. I replaced the old one, all went well. Drove the car about 30 miles, and as I usually do I checked my work to make sure all was well. There was some mtf on the trans. Not gushing mtf just some splattered everywhere from the 30 mile trip. Took it home, took the axle back out and bought a Auto Zone axle seal, I matched it to the old one, they looked pretty similar. The OEM one may have had a slightly bigger lip. Anyways, put it all together... It still leaks. I've taken it out again and greased it very thoroughly and tried to make sure it was as flush and even with the trans case as possible, and it's still dripping. Not much, not enough to drip from the trans, but I definitely see mtf running down from the seal. I'm about to go crazy over it! I can't seem to figure it out. Should I just drive it? I mean it's only a few drops.. Or fix it? And if so how can I fix it? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

I could have sworn I saw a thread not long ago about a lip for these seals. What I don't remember is what transmission they were talking about or what size socket they used to tap the seal in down flush with that inner lip.

I do wonder if this may be the same challenge you are experiencing.

Found it, it was on a 2004 civic but they noticed a small inner lip that the honda seal driver mates up to when installing the seal. It is past flush with the outer case:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-.../#post51205827

Post #18

 

Honestly I've looked at every thread, every video I can find. I've tried seating the seal with my fingers, and then I've gently tapped it in with a rubber mallet. Literally taking half an hour running my finger along the seal to make sure it was even and flush. I've read that the axle could be too short, the axle could not be seated fully, it has to be an oem seal, it has to be a tempkin seal, etc etc. There's so many mixed theories I don't know how to decipher between them.

 

Yeah, I've looked at that thread! See, I've seen that some still have the leak with the OEM seal. I've also heard that if it's an oem axle use an oem seal, or if it's after market use a tempkin seal. Any suggestions?

 

I replaced my seals with OEM and I tapped them flush, then put Vaseline and molybdenum grease on the inner lip before axle install, have had zero leaks.

But I also know Honda says to use a special seal driver for the axle seals.

If you read post 18, they draw what they discovered for the housing the seal slides into.

When you have the seal out, feel the housing and see if it is stepped or smooth from front to the back wall.

If it's stepped you can use the socket trick to push the seal further into the housing down to the lip in the housing like the poster did with their 2004.

If it's smooth from the outer edge of the housing all the way to the back wall, then it's likely a poor grade seal and your inner seal surface isn't working properly to scrape the MTF back into the transmission as the axle spins.

If I recall, the OEM seals had diagonal ribs/grooves in the inner lip. I think it naturally channels the oil back into the transmission as the axles spins but that's only a guess.

The other thing I observed is the seal center facing has a very rigid material built into it. As I had my transmission casing apart when I did the seals, I saw that my use of a flashlight as a seal pusher did do a little bit of damage to that rigid section. In my case, it didn't span the full section, just wobbled in on the edges.

The other thing that comes to mind, is I have seen some cheap seals spin in the housing. If it spins freely in the housing, it will not seal and will leak on the outer edge of the seal instead of the inner lip. In that case, I clean up the housing with non-chlorinated brake cleaner and use a very thin coating of Permatex "The Right Stuff" on the outer edge of the seal and then install. Once it cures, the seal will not spin in the housing and it will be sealed on the outside. Then the only failure can only be the inner lip of the seal.

And lastly, the other common issue is not being careful putting the axle back in. The splines of the axle can easily tear up the inner lip of your new seal and it will not seal up no matter what after that. I was extremely careful when inserting the axle to make sure the axle didn't touch the inner lip until it was past all the splines and would only touch smooth metal.

 

I appreciate the info! I was as careful as anyone could be when installing the axle, I made sure nothing touched ! Haha one other thing was my axle not being seated fully. There is about a finger tips gap between the trans case and the axle. Is this normal? I would assume if the axle was not fully seated I would have run into some sort of issue by now.. But who knows.

 

On some threads you can see the seal meet the axle.. However even if I were to push my seal in slightly it would not form this seal. It doesn't stick that far out of the trans case...?

 

I've seen .5 CM gap of the large part of the axle and the transmission housing and it's fine.

As long as the snap ring clicks into place from insertion, the axle is seated.

It's not the outer part of the seal that does the sealing, it's the inner lip that rides on the nice shiny smooth metal.

Sometimes it's hard to get the snap ring to compress by pushing the axle in, but you definitely know when it finally goes.

 

From what I've seen, it's leaking from the outter lip of the seal, maybe coat the edge of the seal in the permatex like you suggested and see if that stops it.

 

Hate to ask for more help, does anyone know where to get a higher quality seal? I heard tempkin was better for after market axles, but I can't seem to find the passenger side seal. Any help?

 

Is the surface of the axle that the seal touches good and smooth? Also before installing, oil the seal and try it on the axle to confirm you have the right part.

You are just pushing these seals in and out of the bore in the transmission? It's not supposed to work that way. They should take a little force to put in, and they will get destroyed trying to take out.

You need some sort of round object to press only on the very outer edge of the seal for installation. There is of course a special tool for that. If you press on the center of the seal it will bend and become leaky.

I think the OEM seals are the same size on both sides, but they are sensitive to which way the axle turns, so there is a different part for left and right. They are marked with a very small arrow on the rubber part showing which way the axle needs to turn when the car is moving forward.

 

Yeah, I made sure the surface was smooth before installing. And I've used force pushing it in. I've tried to match it flush with the trans the best I can. Once with my fingers, and the second with a rubber mallet. I believe it's leaking from the outter lip. I would assume it would have to be the seal being low quality causing the leak, I've spent close to an hour making sure the seal was evenly seated and flush, greased thoroughly. I didn't hit the seal with the axle either when installing.

 

Well, being an after market seal and from an auto parts store, you could have gotten a drivers side seal. The parts people would not know the difference and unless you are a honda expert, you wouldn't know the difference just by looking at the seal. And being in the process, you probably did not compare the old versus the new to verify it matched in every way you could tell.

I would goto the honda dealer and order the passenger side seal from them.

It sounds to me you installed it properly at least once but if it's the wrong side seal to cause it to leak, it would have you second guessing everything much like you have been.

The dealer will be sure to give you the proper seal.

This is assuming you've already tried the flange sealant on the outer edge of the new seal and it's still leaking. I already assume the seal doesn't fit tight into the seal housing like OEM does and so you are able to remove it without mutilation. mk378 points out a good point about OEM seals, you really can't get them out without totally destroying them, whether with pic hooks or self tapping screws and a drill.

 

That's a good point, I had not thought about that. It could be a driver side seal, and it would make more sense they confused the seals, considering the first seal they sold me was for an auto, I didn't know until I took a second look at the oem one. The one I have in the trans now I did compare to the oem. It appears to be the same diameter (appears) however the inner lip looks noticeably smaller on the aftermarket, but now that you mention it... The factory seal was in the trans case good, it ruined the seal upon removing it due to the force it took; however, when I removed the after market seal to reseat it after I saw the mtf leaking, it only took a quarter of the force to remove it, hardly anything. The seal popped out with no damage what so ever..

 

I'll just go to my local Honda dealership and order the Oem seal.. Would you still coat the edge in the permatex? Would it hurt to coat it? Id rather overkill and coat it then to wish I would have..

 

Coating it is not normally recommended. They don't say to do it in the Factory Service Manual, all seals of this type are said to be installed dry on the outside and lubed on the inner lip.

What the coating does is two things, it makes it that much harder to get the seal out, and it makes clean up for a new seal a bit more involved.

I've only ever had to do it once. For whatever reason one of my new seals spun in the housing, for me it was the cam seal. It slide right out without issue and after I gooped the outer edge a little bit and tapped it back in, I never had a problem with it again. I didn't get the seal at the dealership. So I thought maybe you were running into the same thing as it was an aftermarket seal too.

 

As requested, kinda. Only other "tips" I can provide. Here is the FSM page for replacing the oil seals on that transmission. FSM shows seal flush with seal housing on the transmission housing side and looks to be flush with an inside lip on the clutch housing side.

 

And last question I had was.. You said to grease only the inner lip? Appreciate all the help, don't mean to be a pest with the questions, just making sure everything is done right this time!

 

When you get the seal OEM from Honda, you will notice it already has a bit of grease on the inner lip. I tend to pad that with more grease.

 

I appreciate it man. I'll give it a try tomorrow and hopefully all goes well! Thanks for all the advice!