What does the Garrett GT4294R turbo offer me that I can't get from the Borg Warner S369 turbo? I understand one is ball bearing and the other is journal bearing, but I'm trying to understand why I should spend an extra $2k for the Garrett. If I did the Garrett I will do the GTX4294R with a Tial vband housing so really the question is why should I spend another $2.3k for the GTX instead of a S369?

My setup will be a 6.2L, undivided (not sure if that''s a major deal since the BW is a divided housing) log style manifold, and is a daily driver. I believe a 70mm turbo is my best choice for response yet will still get to my 550whp goal on about 10-15psi. I don't anticipate going for higher power like 800hp+ because a responsive 550-650hp setup will keep me happy. I don't plan to mess with the engine on this car, but would likely do an appropriate cam...but wouldn't want to do more than that unless forced.


GTX4294R Specs
Compressor Inducer: 70.3mm
Compressor Exducer: 94mm
Compressor Trim: 56
Compressor A/R: 0.60
Turbine Diameter: 82mm
Turbine Trim: 84
Turbine A/R: 1.02 single scroll

BW S369 Specs
Compressor Inducer: 69mm
Compressor Exducer: 91.4mm
Compressor Trim: ??
Compressor A/R: ??
Turbine Diameter: 80mm
Turbine Trim: ??
Turbine A/R: 1.00 twin scroll

 

Log manifold huh?

 

Yes, why? There are no equal length tubulars made for my engine so I'm making my own log instead of buying a log.

 

How exactly does that work on what I'm guessing is a v8, LS most likely.

 

Was just talking about the difference between a single and twin scroll turbine last night.

Here's some info that was given out, that I thought was pretty interesting.

 

Divided housing ≠ twin scroll

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Didn't see that in the original post, only divided housing
Are you wondering how you single turbo with a log manifold on v8 too, or have I misread that as well?

 

I'm assuming like this:

 

Hmm, didn't know those were considered logs but

 

https://honda-tech.com/welding-fabri...ifold-2714372/

 

Anyways back to the OP's question, I'm (obviously) no expert but I would say that there is probably no real reason to get the gt42..simply because
A. Twin scroll (from what I've seen on 4bangers at least) has a great effect on spool than ball bearing (faster)
B. BW turbos are known for being tough, and it's also rebuild-able, unlike the Garret.

Furthermore, if you were even to budget in a gt42 I'm kinda wondering why you wouldn't just twin turbo with smaller turbos...would still end up being cheaper than the gt42 and would probably spool faster as well, simply because of less back pressure. Hell, I would suggest twins over the BW as well but that doesn't seems to be the route you want to take. Either way, both are pretty big as well for your goals, but they will do the job just fine with a huge engine like that.

 

Lag isnt nearly as noticeable on a potent V8 as it is on a 1.8L 4 banger. I will spend the extra for a response monster on my Honda, if I were slapping a turbo on my Mustang I would go with a journal bearing and call it a day.

 

I only said twin scroll because on the FullRace site it's advertised as "1.00 A/R T4 Twin Scroll." I'm not sure how I feel about using a divided turbine housing on an undivided manifold. Your thoughts?
Nope, I plan on using a setup similar to the picture below.
I plan to use a crossover pipe and mount the turbo on the passenger side. At first I was going to do a front crossover, but after looking over my engine a lot electrical and other hoses would have to move so for the time being I plan to do the typical rear crossover pipe. Below is the setup style I plan to make, but I plan to change the layout of the wastegate. The main change will be lowering the mounting point on the manifold to give more priority to the wastegate. I also plan on increasing the size from what is pictured. They use a 46mm in this kit, but I plan to use either a Tial 60 or the Precision 66...leaning toward the Precision right now. Don't care if that's overkill, I refuse to take even the slightest chance on boost not holding steady because that's a super annoying problem to deal with after the fact. I also won't be using a flex section on the crossover pipe, but will on the dumptube.

The manifold in this picture is for the passenger side. The driver side reuses the stock manifold. I will also be vbanding everything including the drivers side manifold. I would definitely like a vband turbine housing too, but the borg isn't offered with that option like the Garrett is. Which is a fairly large part of the draw to spending the extra on the Garrett. I really don't want to deal with a regular T4 flange, bolts, and a gasket. It would make fabbing much easier since I wouldn't really have to worry about clocking the flange at all since the turbo would pivot.


Funny you link me to RMS. I actually have one of his manifolds on my Integra. It's been a fantastic piece. I'd for sure buy one for this engine if he had one available. Last time I drove up to his house and he built my Integra's over a weekend. Great dude.
The Garrett is not rebuildable? Does that means I would need to buy a new center section for the Garrett, but the BW would be just replacing the bearings?

I was thinking of a twin setup at first, was looking at the Armaggedon kit. It was priced at $10k and I was like F that. I could make my own twin kit, but it would be 2x the work and 2x the cost. The BW or Gt42 should spool around 2500rpm which is about where I want to be and think that would be low enough for a fun street car.

I say that based on this dyno chart which is of a 5.3L motor. It also uses the same style manifold setup I plan to make. I figure having another 0.9L over this 5.3L motor should move the power curve to the left by a few hundred rpms. He used a MasterPower 70mm with a 0.96 A/R which is in line with both of the turbos I was considering above.

 

Get the Borg Warner. The turbos perform great, they're tough, and if all else fails, they're rebuildable

Also, listen to that spool. I had an S256 and would buy another one just for the sound track

 

Thanks for the input guys. I'm thinking I will go with the BW turbo. I saw one guy on Evolution.net with a tial vband housing on his S369SXE, but I don't see those housings being marketed on the tial site for the BWs. I'll have to call them I guess, but if I can get an vband turbine housing then I'll be a really happy camper!

 

With all due respect, twinsies are still better...
I only offered them as a solution because relative to what you were willing to pay for just a turbo, you could pick up two journal bearing turbos for really any power range for like 15-1600 bucks. Then the only extra costs would be an additional wastegate, bov (if you even feel like running one), dp, and dt. Oh and perhaps exhaust as well, charge piping is f-cking cheap so I didn't even include that (remind me if I'm missing something). The dual turbos are half the gt42's price, and I guarantee the extras that are needed for them that I listed above don equal another 1500...hell, other than the piping the wg and bov are like a few hundred bucks. So all of that for 2-2.5k and you have a way more powerful setup, or at least more potential for sure.

Either way, other than the exhaust restriction, I still think if you single turbo those two are a tad big. Sure, you'll be right in the middle efficiency island and have room to grow, it's just that I think you get away with smaller assuming you could find the appropriate housing as to not restrict the exhaust too much


I dunno, if nothing else I said matters/makes sense then going with the BW is simply the correct choice. Like I said, with a divided housing and (perhaps) true twin scroll it should out perform the Garrett anyways. And yes, you would have to replace the entire CHRA on the Garret, while only needing new bearings/seals for the BW. I may add that, even though I'm the one who brought it up, I don't really consider it too much of a reason to buy one turbo over the other, seeing how they are built to last so long that you will probably end up selling/replacing it way before you would ever be near needing a rebuild...unless you somehow sucked in some rocks, but w/e

Ugh the /ramble is real

 

The biggest issue with the twins is fitment. It would be a PITA to fit the driver's side turbo in there. Enough of a pain that I scrapped that original idea and settled on the tried & true single setup. Plus by going with the BW instead I'll have cut the cost down to around $1k (or $1.6k if I can get that Tial vband housing for it.)

The smallest single BW I've seen people talking about using is an S366. I can't seem to find any dyno charts or other data on the S366 on these motors. It's pretty frustrating because I feel like this forum alone has WAY more data on various turbo sizes for people to make a decision from. Without seeing the results from others, it makes me nervous to try an S366 because I feel like it could be too small given my displacement and could just die in the upper rpms. Then I'd be stuck trying to sell a turbo and taking a loss on that as well as having to spend more money for another tune.

Why do you think the S369 is too big? The dyno chart I posted above shows a 5.3L spooling a 70mm with 0.96a/r around the 3k rpm mark. Makes me think with a 6.2L it might spool a 69mm with 1.02a/r around 2500rpm? That is right where I'd like it to come online. I for sure want it spooling before 3k rpm to have it be a fun street truck, but not so low that I'm limiting myself in the higher rpms. That's because I feel the truck needs the most help in those higher rpms.

Is that dyno chart of a masterpower 70mm/0.96ar not comparable to a S369 69mm/1.02ar? If not, why is that and then which would you suggest & why?

 

Why hasnt the turbo guru chimmed in yet?

 

Because you didn't tag him in duhhhh

 

Yeah, especially since he was 'bragging' up working on a some twin LS setups the other week in random chat @TheShodan

Anyways, looks to me like you can get the s366 in 1.10 AR verified true twin scroll. You keep talking about the low end power for that huge motor....man oh man with an s366 twin scroll you will probably have so much low end torque that it will legitimately be stupid. You have to remember that twin scroll increases efficiency as well, so both low and high end will both prosper greatly. I am not certain about it being a bit small for such a huge motor, but with a 1.10 AR and a (90?) mm exducer it certainly couldn't be a huge choke point. This is just rationalizing though on my end, as obviously I only dabble with 4 bangers atm lol


A member on TI just completed his monster build a few months ago...bw s366 with an upgraded 6 blade billet wheel. He was nearing 800whp on the final run. Found some skylines apparently nearing the same.

(btw it took me some time to find out what type of the wheel so you better get an s366 for all that hard work)
Jk

 

na

He makes a living here

Interesting

 

I've used a custom spec Holset HX50 with a 67mm compressor and 80mm turbine on a LS1, stock block, mild cam and it made around 650whp at 12 psi.

We used a BIG turbine housing coupled to the 80mm exducer turbine wheel. Response was still very good.

Just be careful that you don't go too small on the turbine side as the V8's need to breathe due to the displacement - even if only running "low" boost ie

PS: You can't really compare the S369 SXE to the old school Master Power T70, the wheel aerodynamics on both compressor and turbine side is far superior.

I'd say the S369 would be a good match, I'd just enquire with a place like Full-Race or the boost lab whether the 1.00 housing will be big enough for your engine

 

Orr he doesn't.

I've got a friend who rocks a T4 S366 on his LS6 C5 and he likes it a lot. Not to mention they are dirt cheap.

His previous ride was a 5.3 RX7 with a 6766 and that thing spooled up and took off like a ****. Ran really good around 600-650whp.